to not send my girls on this school trip because of my beliefs

[JustGiveMeTwoMinutes]

The trip is to a mosque and the girls (year 3 and 4) have to cover their heads with a scarf, the boys don't have to.

Just to be clear about where I am coming from, this is about a specific practice which I believe is discriminatory and therefore disagree with. I would not choose myself to enter a building that I could only enter if I wore particular clothes but where that requirement was limited to one gender or one group defined by arbitrary characteristics. I would be happy to cover my head as a sign of respect/tradition if everyone entering the building was required to do so.

They can make their own decision on this when they are adults.

Am I being ridiculous and petty or is it reasonable to stand up for my view that just because a custom is part of a religion that does not excuse it being discriminatory?

Sigh.
Despite your best efforts, Atenco, the feminists on this thread are generally equally disgusted by any flavour of religion which discriminates against females.

The thread would have had the exact same response from me if it was a church or a synagogue.

Perhaps the girls could all identify as boys for that day and the teachers can tie themselves in knots deciding which prejudice to side with.

And as I keep saying, we have no evidence that the OP's children must wear headscarves. Evidence I can find online about school visits to mosques specify that it is not necessary for younger girls.

Exactly!

Regarding clothing in Christian places of worship, I find it sexist and unacceptable that women are required to dress 'modestly' but men are not,

However I do not object so much to rules asking men (but not women) to remove hats, purely because of the origin of the rule. That rule is unrelated to sexual perceptions of men's and women's headwear, it is a left over rule from days when general 'good manners and good dress' were more important for both sexes.

When my father was a child in the Uk, boys of school age were required to wear a suit and tie to sit at the dinner table (and to wear a suit and tie for every sort of social occasion except for sports) and women would wear a hat and gloves to go out, even just to the shops. Men could also wear a hat and to not remove it indoors would be considered rude. Church was strictly 'Sunday best' for BOTH sexes - women in their best dresses and hats and gloves, men in their smartest suits.....So the rule on men's hats is the last remnant of the 'Sunday Best' days, not one with sexist origins as the veil is.

^ although yes, I aknowledge that any form of rules which are different for each gender can be considered sexist.

Hairy, the toilets remark was somewhat tongue in cheek, against a rather seeping generalisation (though it should be said that the articles I found on it actually stated that gender-neutral toilets were being installed because they were safer, rather than the reverse). I agree with your other examples.

Returning to the matter in hand, it is, as with many things in life, a matter of balance. Islam, or rather acts done in the name of Islam -a bit like the Troubles in Ireland were not really about Christianity - is hugely impacting on our everyday lives. With appropriate balance in how a teacher introduces the subject, I feel that it is more important that children learn about Islam as fully as possible than that they are prevented from doing so through concerns abiouyt the headscarf.

Tbh, although my own DD did make very pertinent comments about the wearing of the headscarf, many children will perceive it as simply 'dressing up' - like wearing a princess dress to 'pretend to be a princess', or victorian dress to 'pretend to be a Victorian'. While we as adults know that it signifies other things, and may wish to discuss and redirect those things, they should mnot, in my mind, prevent a child from learning about Islam.

i do wonder how much of this is 'I don't want my child to learn about Islam', and how much is about the headscarf per se. if it genuinely was about the headscarf, then there would be an equal level of complaints about visits to Synagogues.

^ and that perceptions of good differing for the genders is more subtle sexism.

I should have clarified more!

(The complaint re synagogues would, of course, be 'boys have to wear head coverings but girls do not')

I just had my teenage son in here talking about his debate with a school friend on Friday who is Muslim and thinks women need to be protected who raised the uncovered woman as unwrapped sweet argument. zilzarlife.com/13-posters-in-iran-promoting-the-use-of-hijab-to-counter-sexual-harrasment/ They had a very lively debate - the boy of course is also very homophobic. My son said he is not happy his school allows many a muslim boy to say he is homophobic and yet would not allow a boy to say he was racist. Neither are fine. I am glad my son is sticking up for equality for men and women but he said it very hard when so very many of the teenagers have come from abroad with those views whe we had hoped they were dying out in the UK (as indeed they were).

Anyway as long as we all keep up the debate and talk to each other and try to achieve mutual understanding we might make progress.

Derxa

I'm pretty sure the rules on headscarves on children will differ from mosque to mosque and that the ones allowing school children in are likely to be more liberal than some.

Unfortunately I can't offer personal experience of the U.K. On this as the mosque opposite which I used to live didn't allow women in! In all fairness, they did try to get planning permission for a separate female entrance but it was refused, therefore women could not come!

Only for Islam does the search bring up a huge number of articles in which there have been visitors objecting to these requirements. If it was genuinely an 'unbiased' issue, based solely on considerations of sexism rather than on the basis of prejudice against a specific faith, the synagogue search should have brought up an equal number of examples of objections.

Sadly, I am not surprised at all. This issue seems to be a smokescreen for anti-Muslim sentiments.

Teacherwith2kids & Dotforshort

I wouldn't expect complaints to be equal in Synogogues for men / boys because men and boys are less sensitive to sexism as they don't have to experience it much!

Mary, but visiting a mosque, for a session led by members of that community, is still MUCH more likely to improve someone's understanding of Islam than sitting at home saying 'no, won't go there', where a friend of another culture isn't available.

I don't think that visiting a mosque itself will be much more likely to improve understanding. Speaking to people from within the community will help but you don't have to put on a headscarf and go into a mosque to do that.

I'm just thinking of all the things that the Muslim members of my class (in a non C of E school) have to put up with, that they COULD take offence at - Nativity plays, visits to churches and from priests, a Christian-focused RE syllabus, a daily act of school worship with a mainly Christian bias, a uniform and PE uniform that make them conspicuous as they need to adapt it (none wear headscarf or any other symbol of their religion, but the girls do keep arms and legs covered). We demand of them daily respect for the default Christian culture of the UK - the lead up to Christmas, Easter and Harvest, for example, our weekends, the timing of holidays - and accord them very little respect for theirs....

They don't have to "put up" with anything Christian e.g. nativity plays, visits to churches etc. At my children's school, non christian religious holidays e.g. Eid are certainly respected.

I agree that in some cases it could be used as a smokescreen for anti-Islamic sentiment, and that is very unfortunate, but it doesn't invalidate the argument.

AFAIK there's only been one racist person on this thread and MN thankfully chucked them off!

But the OP - and many others - have said they object to ANYTHING that discriminates on the basis of gender.

So there ought - if people were logical - to be as many objections about the asymmetry in both cases - ie the 'we are being made to seem different because we are not going to cover our heads, and the provision for men and women inside synagogues is different' should be the argument from girls / women going to visit a synagogue ... but it isn't.

"At my children's school, non christian religious holidays e.g. Eid are certainly respected."

Yes, but the main school holidays are for, and named after, Christmas and Easter!

I can see the OP's point but I would probably let the lass go on the trip but ask her what she thought about the scarf issue - did she find it unfair? Would be a good chance to discuss discrimination/rights with her. I did not visit the Vatican many years ago as was required to cover up arms in a sweltering summer when my male friend did not have to.

Yes, but the main school holidays are for, and named after, Christmas and Easter!

Well yes, but that is because Christians are (or were) in the majority in the UK and the holidays have evolved around that. If you moved to a muslim country would you complain if the school holidays revolved around their religious festivals?

So there ought - if people were logical - to be as many objections about the asymmetry in both cases - ie the 'we are being made to seem different because we are not going to cover our heads, and the provision for men and women inside synagogues is different' should be the argument from girls / women going to visit a synagogue ... but it isn't.

This is a false equivalent.

Women are almost universally treated as "other" or less than, in patriarchal societies around the world. Every requirement that females do something that deviates from the norm (wear this, cover that, don't go there) will highlight the underlying rule which we know already exists, namely that women are less than men.

In the synagogue example there is no deviation from the norm or special burden placed upon the girls to make them feel less - they will not notice as easily or be aware because nobody is reinforcing the message that the way they are dressed or their uncovered heads are wrong. The message they get is that they are fine as they are.

The boys are not being asked to cover their heads as a way to reinforce their position as less than the girls. It isn't giving them a nasty message about their sex. They won't interpret it as putting them in their place.

It is still discrimination, and still unacceptable, but it is not as overt, nor as unpleasant for the girls as being told to cover themselves, and the boys will not come away thinking that they are "less than" in any way. It is unsurprising that the overt form of discrimination is much more unpleasant for girls to experience than the covert form.

Perhaps the girls could all identify as boys for that day and the teachers can tie themselves in knots deciding which prejudice to side with.

Heh, genius solution, Hairy.
Still humiliating, and we know that islamistic countries actually allow gender reassignment surgery, but at least it would give the teachers something to think about and be fun to the girls.

I love hairylittlecarrot

PlymouthMaid1, I visited Rome many years ago too, I wore a t shirt and shorts, no problem getting in to the Palace but was questioned when entering St Peters Basilica. I managed to roll down my shorts enough to pass.
Do you still feel the same about standing your ground and missing out on seeing St Peters and the Sistine Chapel?

Yes, girls are treated as other and wrong.

Also it is only recently Muslims covered the heads of girls much at all even in Iran. It is a bad backward new trend. Very few people want to lust over a 6 year old. There is no need to cover their head.

It was mostly old ladies in the old days in Iran. Another version of a foreign ideology coming in and taking over by force.

I covered my arms and wore a round neck top in Marrakech because it's a Muslim country. Same thing really I think.

Teacher, the girls are specifically being asked to bring scarves and it is because on one previous visit they were asked to wear them