To think sexist phrases should be edited out of modern novels by well-known authors from well-known publishers?

[AnnaLP]

Just finished reading Frederick Forsyth's "The Kill List" (really enjoyed it) and at the end is a short story "The Veteran", which also seemed like a good read until about 30 pages in where 3 sexist comments pop up in the space of 2 pages:

"She blushed a fetching pink..."
"The pretty and bright WPC...."
".... was very bright and very pretty..."

They are just so unnecessary to the story - they add nothing of value and just demean the female characters they refer to. If I were an editor I would have just removed them - or AIBU?

Of course not. The story is very much set in the context of its time and prevailing attitudes to sex, gender, race, religion will all influence a characters' behaviour.

*It's accepting that sort of throwaway comment that enables sexism to persist. The comments in no way enhance the story or help describe or understand the characters (one a WPC and one a lawyer).

Well, only if you have difficulty differentiating fiction from fact. Everyone knows fiction books are not real, right?

We would never expect a male lawyer to be described as "very bright and very handsome" why not? I'm sure I've read similar phrases about men. In fact, I've heard it in the workplace...

- shouldn't we just focus on professional abilities? In modern novels just as much as in life... Well, that does sound boring. No characters with flaws then. In fact, I think you mean biographical/autobiographical works only.

By the same reckoning, you would also have to ban the entire works of Jane Austen, because her entire premise of women looking for rich husbands to support them is old fashioned and sexist. Or are you having a cut-off date? Off the top of my head, Steinbeck's "Of Mice and Men" for portraying women as dim witted victims too.

I would hope your dd would reach a level of practical criticism that enabled her to comment on character flaws, such as sexism, and to be able to compare and contrast with other characters, and to comment on the consequences of such character flaws.

YABU. You just have to read books in their historical and cultural contexts. And, as others have said, you can not read them. Reviewers and commentators will also often highlight language or attitudes that they find dubious.

I don't have kids or work in schools, so I've no real contact with education these days; I hope literature (and writing in general, actually) IS taught with an eye to context, agendas etc. I seem to remember it largely was when I was at A level and uni level, but I can't remember how much context was gone into when I did my English GCSE.

Jeanne 'It is a point of opinion (and everyone has the right to disagree) universally acknowledged that a single masculine-identifying individual participating in the oppressive capitalist system of land ownership, must be in want of a non-gender-specified pansexual companion and/or sexual partner.'

That's brilliant!

(I still would find reading a book of fiction written like that akin to tearing my own hair out, strand by strand).

That doesn't mean that some works are not open to censure

everything is open to censure. it's censorship that's the issue.

So what you and your dd finds 'offensive' might not be to someone else. I see it as descriptive and nothing more rather than a sinister sexism. Where would it end. For people who find offensive at every thing can you see how this could spiral.

Yabu.

Oh, god, me too scremer.

I read something recently where the author was trying ever so hard to be clever and not specify gender, and it was a good idea but really set my teeth on edge, because it was just so contrived.

What I'm trying to articulate (badly) is that I would object to you deciding something is sexist and unsuitable for publishing because if you believe in equality, surely we women aren't delicate little flowers - we can handle reading something like that without all of our self esteem magically disappearing! It's not remotely extreme.

What I will say for the OP is that I too find a lot of 20th Century American literature surprisingly badly written, in that simplistic, non-descriptive, clichéd adjectives tend to be over-used (when compared to European literature for example). But I still wouldn't censor it. I'd just rather see more clever practical criticism of it, and more comparison with literature which gives better examples of interesting characterisation and use of language. (I'm aware I'm generalising hugely).

I found my critical thinking skills have come to the fore since self publishing etc has been popular - I tend to lose patience far quicker with a book that is lazily written!

Actually we don't know when he wrote it only that it was first published in 2000 online before it was published as a book with four other stories in 2001.

YABVU.

Most modern literature is written from the point of view of a main character or characters. Even if it's in the third person it's usually close third person, i.e. everything the reader sees is filtered through the perceptions of the viewpoint character. We see very little in the way of omniscient or distant third person narratives these days (i.e. the descriptions/treatment of other characters and of setting come directly from the author) as they've gone out of fashion.

The descriptions of other characters and the world in which the story is set should all be consistent with the attitudes and personality of the viewpoint character. So if the main character would think of a woman as 'pretty' then the description of her should say that.

YAB ridiculously U. Get over yourself. HTH.

You obviously need to widen your reading material OP, if you can even think such censorship is a good idea.

PPs have suggested 1984, which seems like a good start!

YABU imo. As unfortunate it is to find that the tone or language of a novel inhibits our ability to enjoy it, if we started censoring out everything within a text that made us u comfortable there would be very few works of literature left indeed.

I believe that the creative freedom of any writer within their work is paramount to our understanding and appreciation of writing as a whole, particularly with works which have already been published. You're free to disagree or dislike the writing but I don't think that gives anybody the write to amend it in any way.

And for your own sake never read anything remotely Victorian

*Apologies, that was supposed to say 'uncomfortable' and not 'u comfortable'.

I think FF just shouldn't write this crap in the first place - but if he does, and people read it, I don't think the answer is to re-write the books.

I don't think YWBU to think that it would be good if editors responded to writers more often saying 'now look, you may not have noticed this, but every time you introduce a female character, you say whether she's pretty of not - it doesn't come across well.'

And JK Rowling's editor might have said 'have you noticed that everytime Hermione says anything, she squeaks it or shrieks it, whereas Harry and Ron tend to shout or say - could we think about changing a few of those?'

YABU

And frightening.

Edit the history books. Edit the novels. Edit what we say now - and what we think - and hunt down those:

-->who offend against The Party?
-->who offend against God?
-->who might be a witch?
-->who have impure thoughts?
-->who might be Commies/Fascists/Royalists/Roundheads???
-->who might be ant-revolutionaries??

It's all been done before - and is still happening in several lovely places in the world. ( N.Korea OP? - you'd fit in well there)

Yabu
Where would it end
What about disablist language and racist

By the way - just in case you think I am an evil sexist - I do think about language - and agree that it is important. But what you are suggesting is mad.

Are you serious? The novel police?

Just out of curiosity, would this apply to descriptive, narrative passages, to dialogue or both?

Books are subject to sod all censorship - and long may it continue.

OP should write to Fred Forsythe outlining her concerns and suggestions for Bowdlerisation.

YABU OP

No, it's a daft idea. Just like how in the states there were calls to remove the twin towers from films and photographs.

Also, I fail to see how a character description of 'bright and pretty' is in any way sexist.

Milend Would it help if you knew that Wives and Lovers was written to order to promote a film of the same name, about marital infidelity?

The song reflects the whispered poison a wife has poured into her ears and her scared and angry reaction to it.