To think that there should be a pupil premium to help schools support children who have a parent in prison

[ReallyTired]

Prison should be there to punish the adults, but it has a negative affect on families. Sometimes sending someone to prison is unavoidable. I think providing additional funding for children with a parent in prison would enable schools to support such children better.

PP has to be spent on PP students.

And if you think that punishing children for parental crime is ok, or even a disincentive, I can only despair that democracy allows you a vote.

The boy in question that has prompted my post is SIX years old. He is below the age of criminal responisblity. Why should he suffer for the actions for his father? Punish the criminals by all means, but a six year old hasn't committed a crime.

Believe it or not, some partners of prisoners work. Just like lots of single mothers do up and down the country. The loss of tax credits hits such families really hard.

"I don't agree though, OP, there are social care services which support families of prisoners, and liaise with schools."

Schools see a child every day. They are in a position to see ways that a child can be helped. Social services don't help with the academic impact of having a parent in prison. Social services are very stretched. Its recongised that the children of servicemen have greater needs in school. Why not recongise the needs of children of criminals.

Yanbu

People who commit crimes do not think well I better not as I may get caught and it will impact my family whatever drives them to do what they do is often very complex but their children should not have to suffer more than they do already

It's better to work on preventing a cycle occurring as it so often does

Manor, are you seriously saying parents would commit imprisonable offences solely in order to lever some additional funds to their child's school? Do you listen to yourself?

No, but criminal behaviour does tend to reduce once a person (usually a man) becomes a parent. Interviews with reformed criminals often reference a transition to parenthood as being the catalyst for their reform as they wanted better for their DCs, not wanting them to grow up in a life of crime etc.

It is reasonable to conclude from this that the desire for your DCs not to be disadvantaged does have an impact on offending behaviour. Not always, but often.

People who commit crimes do not think well I better not as I may get caught and it will impact my family

Yes, they do actually. As with all things criminological, there are elements of determinism/free will/positivim involved in offending behaviour, but the personal cost of offending (including effects on families) does feature highly in the criminal mind.

Well it does not stop some offending does it

People may change they may feel guilt but for some what differences does it make if they have a family or not

YANBU I couldn't agree more. Shame to see such unsympathetic views on MN

Interviews with reformed criminals often reference a transition to parenthood as being the catalyst for their reform as they wanted better for their DCs, not wanting them to grow up in a life of crime etc.

But you're arguing that the incentive for not committing an imprisonable offence is financial, and that this potential financial penalty is sufficient to prevent the crime being committed.

I suspect that while it might be an incentive, your quote above is closer to the real incentive - not wanting children to be taught the wrong lesson/stigmatised/suffer socially.

Is there any evidence that the prospect of their children being financially disadvantaged is a major catalyst for reform?

I have to admit that I have not met many people who have been to jail. The tiny number I have had the mistfortune to meet have been people with anger management or drugs issues. They are far too implusive/ drunk to think their actions through.

A six year old has no control over his parents' actions. Helping a child in such a position might break the cycle of crime.

Actually, schools do have some discretion about who they spend their PP money on. It is provided to help disadvantaged pupils and schools can include non-PP qualifying children in that group. As long as they can demonstrate that they are spending the money appropriately and closing the gap between PP children and their peers then this is OK.

Lots of PP policies therefore include a statement along the lines of "In making provision for socially disadvantaged pupils, we recognise that not all pupils who receive free school meals are socially disadvantaged. We also recognise that not all pupils who are socially disadvantaged are registered or qualify for free school meals. We reserve the right to allocate the Pupil Premium funding to support any pupil or groups of pupils the school has legitimately identified as being socially disadvantaged."

In practice, if a child is struggling then a school should support them appropriately regardless.

^That's a genuine question, BTW. I am pondering.

i feel sorry for any child who has a parent who ends up in prison....the person in prison has seriously let that child down (for whatever reason)...i grew up in the 70s,we were poor, somedays had only potatoes for dinner, no heating, yet my father worked and never ended up in prison due to being poor and resorting to crime.....we never had any benefits either...people today make excuses for their failings, its always someone elses fault....and also what kind of woman would want that sort of role model for their child....if my partner ended up in prison, he would no longer be part of my or my childrens lives...yeah children of parents in prison do need support, but it comes from many places.....starting in the home!

Ugh, what a depressing thread. When I read the OP I thought it would be a unanimous YANBU. What’s to discuss really? But no…

No! The impact on your family is one of many things that you should think about before you commit a crime!

Seriously? If you really think this then get hold of a DVD of this film for a vivid illustration of how parents being incarcerated punishes the whole family in unforeseen ways.

I really wish the left would have a think about how their policies just serve to keep people trapped in poverty (and in this case criminality).

Yeah, because the right are doing so much to close the poverty gap…

FWIW, there is a very high degree of correlation between poverty and crime

Those of us with higher-level thinking skills refer to this as a vicious circle. (italics mine)

Fucksake.

Offending behaviour is so complex and difficult to unpick that it is impossible to really say that one factor, eg financial disadvantage to your DCs is the sole factor that brings about change.

I guess the point I am making is that the benefit to society from having this incentive not to commit crime is far, far greater than would be achieved by giving a financial leg up to the DCs of prisoners.

Society doesn't fall apart by supporting its weakest members though. It's not that long ago that children of the less desirable were left to fend for themselves, which didn't make for a better society it just perpetuated a cycle of crime, poverty, premature death!

It is a well known and undisputed fact that growing up in poverty is not beneficial! Yet according to some its what these children deserve because of who their parents are. How sad it seems to have a ring of 'decreasing the surplus population' about it, perhaps Manor should NC to Scrooge for the festive season...

I guess the point I am making is that the benefit to society from having this incentive not to commit crime is far, far greater than would be achieved by giving a financial leg up to the DCs of prisoners

Do you have evidence for that? Have there been studies of various systems of intervention?

My intuition says the opposite - if being poor = crime, then let's try to stop being being poor.

I think in a lot of cases it would be pointless. It may well mean money going on a child whose circumstances haven't changed one bit because a parent is in prison. E.g. If a parent is at the point of being jailed they may well have been uninvolved for years due to violence, addiction, lifestyle. They may well be picked up by other means, eg the care system, free school meals. I suspect the ones that aren't probably won't need it. Just because one parent is in prison doesn't mean the other one is doing a bad job.

Those of us with higher-level thinking skills refer to this as a vicious circle. (italics mine)

Just a shame that your 'higher level thinking' doesn't afford you the understanding that 'correlation' and 'causation' are two completely different concepts.

I cannot imagine that there are many families who have a parent in prison that do not already receive PP, either through qualifying for it now or as ever 6.

Your viewpoint doesn't make sense Manor. If considering the family acts as a disincentive to some offenders, then those are going to be the ones who stopped offending. Those for whom it didn't are the ones who go to prison, and whose families suffer in consequence. A huge number of mothers act as Potatoface says and cut contact with the criminal father - so are left on one income bringing up children alone. There should be support for those parents and children. I just don't think that social support needs are the arena for schools.

"I guess the point I am making is that the benefit to society from having this incentive not to commit crime is far, far greater than would be achieved by giving a financial leg up to the DCs of prisoners."

Neither the children nor their parents would get their hands on the money. The parents would see no benefit and have no say how the money is spent.

Such money might pay for councelling for a six year old who is traumatised after seeing mummy badly beaten up. Or maybe the money could be used to employ a TA to mentor them or a breaskfast club or extra sport. The individual children needs would have to be assessed. Having a parent in prison might affect children in different ways. I am not an expert, but I am in favour of experts being given some money to spend to make the lives of such children better.

Infact support such children would help the other 29 children. When children have the right support they are less likely to kick off.

I'm not sure that PP is really a financial leg up to any child tbh. It's a fairly modest amount of money given to the school to support the child (this academic year it's £1320 for primary pupils and £935 for secondary pupils) I say modest because it doesn't feel like an awful lot of money to combat the challenges that some young people face.

My intuition says the opposite - if being poor = crime, then let's try to stop being being poor

It's not as simple as that - as I have already said, offending behaviour is associated with complex blend of factors, poverty is just one of them.

It is disingenuous to suggest that all offending behaviour is as a result of a wholly rational choice, but it is similarly oversimplifying the issue to argue that all crime is committed completely independently of the individual's personal control.

FWIW, for the overwhelming majority of criminal convictions, the courts do need to be satisfied that the mens rea of the offence is satisfied - i.e. that the offender knew what they were doing and actually intended to commit the crime they did. Furthermore the courts recognise the devastating effects that incarceration have on the individual and their family (not t mention the public purse) so try very hard to avoid it.

On the whole, people end up in prison as an absolute last resort - very few people in our system are there by accident of circumstance.

LikeASoul
PP at our school pays for extra TAs as well as subsidies for things like school trips and GCSE revision guides. Free School Meals are also a bonus.

But what happens when prison is the best thing to happen fir that family. how would them.qualifing fir help when they are finally safe and happy be of use to this chikdren. fir sone it's the run up and the hiding and the fear where the person vomiting the crimes is a danger to them that help and extra funding at school would be of more benefit. .

how do you decide