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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

To think this is a very good analogy

226 replies

Babycham1979 · 03/11/2015 09:25

www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/consent-its-a-piece-of-cake/17594#.Vjh4hpiUR6Y

I appreciate the aims of the campaign to promote public understanding of 'consent', but I agree with the author in that this seems to be dangerously blurring the lines and criminalising behaviour that is, at worst, antisocial (ie persuasion).

Rather like the recent events with 'safe spaces' and censorship, I suspect this will ultimately backfire on its proponents.

OP posts:

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 03/11/2015 19:12

I agree there was no consent. Choosing one form of abuse over another is not consent; it's survival.

I do think people have stereotyped ideas of what rape is, lying there waiting for to end rather than screaming and fighting doesn't make it any less of a violation.

bumbleymummy · 03/11/2015 19:17

Sorry but I do agree that consent can be blurry in situations where alcohol is involved. Someone can be 'enthusiastically' engaging in sex while they are drunk but then not remember much about it the next day. Some people have suggested that this means she was too drunk to consent. Was she? How could her partner have known if she was 'enthusiastic' about it?

CwtchMeQuick · 03/11/2015 19:18

Thank you venus and I'm so sorry you went through what you did. And I agree with m1nnie that you shouldn't feel guilty for not reporting.
I actually didn't press charges against my ex.
I should have reported him. And I'd hate to think that any other woman could suffer at his hands because I didn't. (But I do happen to know that karma has well and truly bitten him on the arse)

m1nniedriver · 03/11/2015 19:22

Not being able to remember consenting is not the same as not consenting. I'm not sure how that could ever be proved 1 way or the other? not remembering is also not always a sign if being really oissed. I've had times where ive drank the place dry, been absolutely smashed but can still unfortunately remember most things. I've had times where ive drank less and had massive memory blanks. When would my consent not be valid

m1nniedriver · 03/11/2015 19:23

Geuine question before I get accused of being a spokesperson for rapists again

bumbleymummy · 03/11/2015 19:24

Exactly Minnie. This is where I think it can become blurry about whether or not someone has given consent. What if they can't remember?

CwtchMeQuick · 03/11/2015 19:27

I don't think I'm getting my point across very clearly

I suppose my point is that I think we need to challenge what is seen as rape and consent. Many people would say to me why didn't you just say NO? and in many people's eyes I did consent.

CwtchMeQuick · 03/11/2015 19:31

And I also agree RE alcohol and not remembering giving consent is very different to not giving consent at all. But I'm not sure how we overcome that.
I do think it's a case of enthusiam. But i'm not sure how one proves enthusiam after the fact

BlueJug · 03/11/2015 19:55

Babycham1979 and m1nniedriver have some good points and should be listened to.

It does not mean I am a rape apologist. No way! But use some common sense.

Impossible to say "just make sure you have enthusiasm" ;--being enthusiastic is often what is in dispute - he thinks she was.

Once or twice in my youth I was too drunk and regretted it - the man was drunk too and possibly regretted it too. We learnt. We didn't do it again - and neither of us got sent to prison for five years.

There are victims who are falsely accused - a friend of mine, her husband was falsely accused - ruined everything, his whole life. No case to answer but mud sticks.

m1nniedriver · 03/11/2015 20:03

it certsinly does bluejug. No matter what truths come out any hint of an accusation like that will haunt someone for the rest of their lives. There should be stiffer penalties to put people off making false accusations IMO. we are not allowed to speak about this though, it makes us rapist apologists

BlueJug · 03/11/2015 20:05

The cases mentioned by PP are clearly rape. No consent was given.

How can you be absolutely sure that someone has consented, that they didn't feel coerced, that they are not too drunk to agree, (alcohol often makes people much more up for sex and seemingly enthusiastic)? It is important to try to make this area clearer - not just increase the damage.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 03/11/2015 20:12

There is a lot of case law around consent including when intoxicated. A man has to believe a partner consented (subjective) and a jury has to agree that belief was reasonable (objective). Each case will be looked at individually with corroborating evidence where available. e.g. If her friends are all saying she was so drunk she hardly knew where she was then a belief in her consent is going to look less reasonable.

BlueJug · 03/11/2015 20:13

My friend's husband lost his job, his marriage, many of his friends and for a while access to his children. He was not British and went back to his home country to start again.

His accuser was not prosecuted. A trial would have made it so much worse for him and his family.

He had had sex with her. She was a colleague. He was wrong, a cheat and stupid but she wanted him, (good looking, fairly wealthy, the boss..), until he dropped her to try and make his marriage work.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 03/11/2015 20:17

Why has this thread become about the very small number of men falsely accused rather than the much larger number of women who are raped?

PiperIsTerrysChoclateOrange · 03/11/2015 20:21

When I am drunk with friends we make all sort of stupid plans which while sober is totally unrealistic.

Now we all make plans while drunk should we all just follow through with these plans.

Dh and I have been in a relationship for 11 years, not once when I have been blind drunk had sex with me. What he does is help me up the stairs takes my shoes and bottoms off and leaves me alone. Even if I ask him for sex he has no desire to rape me.

m1nniedriver · 03/11/2015 20:31

Because it was mentioned, it's relevant and it was jumped on. There have also been stories on this thread from posters who have been survivors of rape if you read it fully. Its all part of the same discussion, as it should be. False Allegations affect the way people see things, whether one likes it or not. It's a very interesting thread.

EnthusiasmDisturbed · 03/11/2015 20:32

Chaz because we always have to consider men first

Even when they are the tiny minority of victims

But the crime that is being talked about is based on a lie not an act or blurred lines

m1nniedriver · 03/11/2015 20:35

Piper, are you suggesting that if a man has sex with a woman who is drunk it's rape why would your husband be raping you if he had sex when you asked him to? That's ridiculous and completely minimises this horrendous act!!! Perhaps I read that wrong

EnthusiasmDisturbed · 03/11/2015 20:41

Because when you are that drunk are you able to give consent are you able to comprehend all that is going on

If you were arrested and drunk or under the influence of drugs you would not be questioned for the same reason

BlueJug · 03/11/2015 20:42

It is not about men - it is about the issue of consent. Consent by definition involves more than one person. We have to discuss that.

Rape is horrible AND NO-ONE IS SAYING OTHERWISE.

Original poster

Babycham1979 · 03/11/2015 20:43

Why has it?mer, because that's entirely pertinent to my original point.

A number of posters are, again, infantilising women. Why does being drunk make you incapable of consenting? No, it doesn't. How should anyone know if an enthusiastic partner is 'too drunk' to know if they're enthusiastic? They never can!

We can't go round locking people up based upon whims and assumptions, sorry. The recent Oxford Union lesbian rape confessor is a case in point. Should she be locked up?

OP posts:

venusinscorpio · 03/11/2015 20:44

YY Chaz. Many people have a problem with the legal language around consent. "Reasonable" consent is key. Reasonable doubt doesn't mean "beyond all possible doubt". The law allows a defendant to claim that they thought the victim consented, even if they were mistaken. As long as the mistake was genuine, ie reasonable in the eyes of the jury.

Where the complainant was heavily intoxicated (like for instance with Ched Evans) it becomes about what steps the accused can demonstrate they took to obtain consent. So with that case, you had a situation with two men accused of rape, and one was cleared and one was convicted. Many many people don't see how that is possible. The difference was that it was considered more "reasonable" by the jury for McDonald to claim that he had obtained consent, than Evans. And this all came down to the corroborating evidence in the trial. Some of which was Evans' own testimony and police statement, which damned him as it was clear that he had acted in a predatory manner.

Original poster

Babycham1979 · 03/11/2015 20:44

Why has it?mer, because that's entirely pertinent to my original point.

We can't go round locking people up based upon whims and assumptions, sorry. The recent Oxford Union lesbian rape confessor is a case in point. Should she be locked up?

This lovely woman;

www.telegraph.co.uk/women/11940079/Oxford-student-activists-victims-claim-she-raped-them.html

OP posts:

FuzzyWizard · 03/11/2015 20:57

I'm with Piper on this. I'm not really a drinker... But I've been out a few times for end-of-term drinks and got rather drunk. When I've got home DP has tutted at me, put me into pyjamas and put me to bed with a glass of water (and a bucket ). Even if I was drunkenly saying "I luffs you" and asking him to have sex with me.

If we've both had a few drinks together then that's different but there is something definitely unpleasant about a sober person having sex with a drunk person IMO. DP sees it that way too... When he's sober he just wouldn't want to have sex with a drunk person who doesn't really have full control over what they are saying and doing. Two people who have been drinking together and are a bit tipsy is completely different IMO.

SoftDriftedSnow · 03/11/2015 21:00

OP-Similarly, we have a nonsense position where two fifteen year olds can consensually have sex, leading to the boy being charged with rape, but not the girl.

No, we don't. You have totally given away your ignorance about the law surrounding rape by that statement alone. Before you start pontificating, how's about reading what the SOA actually says?

And m1nniedriver, rape is an act in the moment. What happens before it is relevant only if a jury believes that the accused had reasonable belief in consent and snogging or whatever beforehand is not consent to penetration. And if you weren't in the room, then pipe down.

How difficult is it to make sure that the person you're about to have sex with is enthusiastic?

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