To think this is a very good analogy

[Babycham1979]

www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/consent-its-a-piece-of-cake/17594#.Vjh4hpiUR6Y

I appreciate the aims of the campaign to promote public understanding of 'consent', but I agree with the author in that this seems to be dangerously blurring the lines and criminalising behaviour that is, at worst, antisocial (ie persuasion).

Rather like the recent events with 'safe spaces' and censorship, I suspect this will ultimately backfire on its proponents.

You want a woman to be charged because she can't prove she was raped?

So it's not just that you are a rape apologist, but that you actively support rape and want to make it easier for rapists to get away with it.

See this is exactly what I mean!! She wasn't raped, it was a false allegation, she has admitted that, had she not there is every chance he would have been found guilty!! Even with that people still doubt it! it's incredible and yes, she should have been charged!!! I'm certsinly not a rape apologist but these things do hapoen!

A case like that would be very difficult to get to court

So she made a false allegation then I am very surprised she was not charged with wasting police time

But if the case was dropped due to lack of evidence then that is not the same thing as a false allegation

There is no blurred lines here either you think she lied or she is telling the truth did she consent or not that is what the jury would be asked if it had gone to court not do you think she gave her consent and changed her mind the next day

Rape is horrendous, in fact there are really no words to describe it but accusing me of being a rape apologist because I tell a story I was personally involved in is wrong too and does the cause no favours!! I never suggested it is the norm or that it is common I'm merely showing the other side. Take it as you will

Sorry m1nnie I realise that she had freely admitted making the whole thing up. Perhaps I'm not reading your posts in sufficient detail.

That, of course, is entirely different to someone who simply drops the case for an unknown reason.

You and me both disturbed. She had no choice but to admit to it in the end. It was awful for him and pretty upsetting for the rest of us that we're there too. I really don't know why she wasn't charged. I'm dropping it now, it's too tempting to go into detail

*didn't realise

What's the solution, though, minnie? Do you think it's fair for a woman to be automatically disbelieved if she has had a few drinks? I get that on rare occasions women might take advantage, but there is always going to be the odd malicious false accusation, just like there are always going to be many more actual rapes, most of which will go unpunished.

And it's not helpful to send a message to either women or men that women's accounts of being raped when they've had a drink should be taken with a big pinch of salt. It sounds like the experience you quote was a deliberate false accusation. Women have gone to prison for this, so I'm quite surprised she admitted it was made up. But I agree it can be devastating, and is a horrible thing to do to somebody. Most people aren't that nasty.

No I certainly don't think a woman should be disbelieved because she has had a drink, far from it ! it's not what i was saying at all. I don't think that an allegation alone should be a presumption of guilt either. It's a really hard situation. I have every sympathy for anyone who has been raped no matter what situation it occurrd, there is never an excuse and there is never a reason and it is NEVER the victims fault i would like to think that goes without saying but I guess it doesn't Given that ive been called a rape apologist

But the issue of consent seems to be blurred in some cases

^ that is rape apologism

You can sad face all you like, but the issue of consent is not "blurred" in the least and pretending it is all massively complicated and so we'll just have to put up with outrageously high levels of rape and sexual assault of women and girls is on the first page of Rape Apologies: A basic primer

She had no choice but to admit to it in the end.

Because there was proof she was lying, or because she was bullied into retracting her accusation by people who believe consent is blurry?

CPS study into false allegations in 2013
"Where false allegations of rape and domestic violence do occur however, they are serious: reputations can be ruined and lives can be devastated as a result. Such cases will be dealt with robustly and those falsely accused should feel confident that the criminal justice system will prosecute these cases wherever there is sufficient evidence and it is in the public interest to do so."

The report has shed light on the context in which people make false allegations. Mr Starmer added: "The report shows that a significant number of these cases involved young, often vulnerable people, and sometimes even children. Around half of the cases involved people aged 21 and under, and some involved people with mental health difficulties. From the cases we have analysed, the indication is that it is therefore extremely rare that a suspect deliberately makes a false allegation of rape or domestic violence purely out of malice. It is within this context that the issue should be viewed, so that myths and stereotypes around these cases are not able to take hold."

During the period covered by the report, there were 5,651 prosecutions for rape but only 35 for making false allegations of rape. There were 111,891 prosecutions for domestic violence, but only six for making false allegations of domestic violence. There were a further three people charged with making false allegations of both rape and domestic violence. [See 'Notes to Editors'
www.cps.gov.uk/news/latest_news/under_the_spotlight/

The thing is, most rapes are the "he says, she says" type between people who know each other. Mine would have been, had I reported it. Personally, I'd like more accused rapists to have to testify in their own words and describe what happened, before the jury. They can still claim consent, it's just that they would have to describe the steps they took to get it. They currently don't, these cases rarely even get to court as the CPS won't prosecute without enough evidence. You could say that this is correct due to the presumption of innocence in our legal system, but what it basically means that the woman is presumed to be lying.

Mr Starmer is Sir Kier Starmer who was Director of Public Prosecutions at the time.

Okay bath, glad you cleared it up for me, I will add that to my CV

Venus, you have my sympathy for whatever it was you went through

Can I ask what it was that stopped you reporting it? Was it s fear of not being believed or was it the thought of the process that you couldn't face?

Or what would have made it easier for you to report it if you see what I mean.

YABU OP, it's a shit analogy.

Hth

I think that cake analogy is total shit. No one should have to be talked into, or convinced, to have sex. I'm not sure convincing someone to have sex with you makes you a rapist, because I suppose it's consent, albeit given reluctantly. But it sure as hell ain't right.
After I had DS my ex became abusive physically and emotionally. On a regular basis he guilted me into sex. 'A good girlfriend would have sex with me' 'I have needs you know' 'I'll get sick of no sex and I'll leave you and who the hell else will have you?' Did I ever say no? Yes I did. And he would go on and on until I gave in and said yes. He would comment on my lack of enthusiasm, tell me off for lying stiff as a board, have a go at me for not being into it. And he never once stopped. Is that rape? I'm not sure. Not in the way rape is portrayed in the media as a violent attack with the woman screaming no. But it's not right.
I said yes because 5 minutes of uncomfortable humping was preferable to the beating and emotional blackmail I'd get for saying no.
It's not okay that I had sex because I was afraid of the repercussions. And it's not okay to tell me it's my fault because I could've said no.

Is it rape? No but I think it should be.

We need to challenge society's views of rape and consent.
We dont need to victim blame.
And we certainly do not need to liken the guilt and disgust one has after being forced into sex, to how one may feel over eating a piece of fucking cake.

After I had DS my ex became abusive physically and emotionally. On a regular basis he guilted me into sex. 'A good girlfriend would have sex with me' 'I have needs you know' 'I'll get sick of no sex and I'll leave you and who the hell else will have you?' Did I ever say no? Yes I did. And he would go on and on until I gave in and said yes. He would comment on my lack of enthusiasm, tell me off for lying stiff as a board, have a go at me for not being into it. And he never once stopped. Is that rape? I'm not sure. Not in the way rape is portrayed in the media as a violent attack with the woman screaming no. But it's not right.
I said yes because 5 minutes of uncomfortable humping was preferable to the beating and emotional blackmail I'd get for saying no.
It's not okay that I had sex because I was afraid of the repercussions. And it's not okay to tell me it's my fault because I could've said no.

Is it rape? No but I think it should be.

Actually yes, it is.

I'm so sorry. But it is.

Bathtime I suppose I didn't word that well.

What I mean is it's not how we are led to think of rape. I said yes. I wasn't screaming, I wasn't fighting him off. He did not physically force his penis into my vagina.
I didn't want to have sex with him, but I still consented.

I'm not sure whether legally that is classed as rape. I don't think he could be convicted for it. He knew I didn't want it but I still said yes.

And thank you. I have dealt with it now and i am far far away from that man, and I'm a stronger person than I once was

Minnie - it was both. It was about 15 years ago. I didn't know the person all that well but had had previous consensual sex with him the night before, and then he forced himself on me. I had to go to work straight after (it was first thing in the morning) and so I just automatically went to work and focussed on that, then went out after work and got very drunk and tried to forget it, then went to bed and slept all weekend so I didn't have to think about it. I knew there was no point reporting, I never even seriously considered it as a possible option. And yes, I do feel guilty that he possibly did it to others, but I honestly don't think reporting it would have done any good and I couldn't face it, as I felt people would have quite likely have assumed I was in some way to blame or I was lying. I do wish I had confronted him about it though, later. I didn't, I just left and ignored it when he texted me.

Yes agree that was rape as part of an abusive relationship, Cwtch. So sorry you went through that.

I see what you mean cwtch and I agree. It's wrong he is an animal and a complete bastard and a good taste of his own medicine should be applied daily, but prosecutable, I don't know. For the physical abide most definately!!

Venus that's awful Im really sad for you reading that. You shouldn't feel guilty about not reporting it, you should feel proud you survived it!!

Thanks minnie. I think I've come to see it like that now and becoming more feminist really helped me. It (and other abusive situations I'd been in) did send me into quite a dark downward spiral for a while though.

I didn't want to have sex with him, but I still consented.

No you didn't.

Coerced "yes" is not consent.

He forced you to allow him to him penetrate you for fear of the consequences.

That is rape.

There is no grey area here.

Lots of real rapes are not currently prosecutable because people believe that consent is "blurry".

But it is very clear that what you were subjected to was a sustained campaign of abuse and rape.

Well done for getting away from him.