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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To not know who or what to believe any more!

107 replies

Leavingsosoon · 02/11/2015 20:14

I had the radio on this morning, and there was a sad piece about the number of children in the county who would wake up homeless.

Then later I discovered that these stats were misleading, that the 'homeless' children were included in cases of overcrowding, so children sharing a room for instance.

I can't read the guardian any more, the BBC is biased from threads I've read here.

I don't know whether the kids company thing has made me feel as if I just can't trust any stats, any piece of information , any claims by charity. I've cancelled all my direct debits as I just feel like everyone is lying to me and I'm sick of it!

AIBU, and cynical/jaded?

OP posts:
Inmybackyard · 02/11/2015 22:04

Well, that's not what I was told - but this is what I mean regarding lack of unbiased information

Who told you it was incorrect? Why are you so quick to reject government statistics that journalists will have fact checked?

Leavingsosoon · 02/11/2015 22:06

I don't think I am.

I'm being told information that is contradictory and that was not presented as a government statistic but as part of a (very jovial and informal) radio talk show this morning.

OP posts:
Leavingsosoon · 02/11/2015 22:07

And journalists certainly didn't check Kids Company until recently. Go back five years and no one could say anything even faintly critical of it.

OP posts:
Inmybackyard · 02/11/2015 22:08

I'm curious as to who told you it was wrong?

almondpudding · 02/11/2015 22:12

But surely the people who are being biased here are you and Carol, OP?

Because you've decided to interpret homelessness according to your own personal biases of what that means.

Shelter are using the legal government definition, which anybody can easily refer to. They are using a nationally agreed definition.

Leavingsosoon · 02/11/2015 22:17

Friend who works for the council backyard

I don't think we are really almond - I can't speak for carol but I'm questioning the way the information was presented and from shelters website the legal government definition, if that's what it is, is so vague and woolly just about anyone could be classed as homeless through it.

OP posts:
Justanotherlurker · 02/11/2015 22:17

Sorry, I was slow posting and others pointed out the legal definition, I think your only using this as an example of what you are really trying to ask.

Is there an independent source of information?

Short answer is no.

Unless your going to dive into the stats yourself and understand what questions was asked, why and for what outcome, and then read each side of the argument, it will always have an agenda.

Leavingsosoon · 02/11/2015 22:18

I just wish I could find out what's happening in the world without being told what I should thi just :)

OP posts:
Leavingsosoon · 02/11/2015 22:18

Think, not thi :)

OP posts:
scott2609 · 02/11/2015 22:19

Leavingsosoon- read my first post again. Children over the age of ten sharing a room are not automatically 'statutorily overcrowded' in law and therefore not classed as homeless, including in these statistics.

If every child over the age of ten sharing a room was classed as homeless we'd have a national epidemic! I have clients sharing a single room with three of four young kids and it's not enough for them to be stat overcrowded!

You say the 'grey areas' are the ones described by carol, so:

-People who are within 28 days of the end of a tenancy and have informed the council about this. Correct, though more likely when they are 28 days away from the execution of a warrant of possession rather than end of tenancy (i.e. they've been through the court possession process and paid costs/ facing paying costs for this totalling, as a minimum, £360).

-People who are over-crowded -

you need 1 bedroom for each couple, each person over 21. Correct, though rarely results in stat overcrowding (therefore 'homeless') definition as other rooms of a minimum (tiny) size can be used as a bedroom, including a living room

Under 21, no mixed sex sharing over 11 - so a family with DS and DD over 11 need 3 bedrooms. Correct, but again rarely results in stat overcrowding definition because of other room available. Overcrowding law also doesn't count when it's due to the 'natural growth' of the family. So a child turning 11 doesn't suddenly mean you're homeless if you only have 2 bedrooms for them and a younger sibling

As well as anyone in temporary accommodation. Correct. They're there because if they weren't, they'd be street homeless. If they had friend/s family to sofa surf with temporarily, they would (and many have for a long time).

Since nobody has referred to it yet, the legal definition of homeless can be found under s. 175 of the Housing Act 1996 (Part VII):

(1)A person is homeless if he has no accommodation available for his occupation, in the United Kingdom or elsewhere, which he—

(a)is entitled to occupy by virtue of an interest in it or by virtue of an order of a court,

(b)has an express or implied licence to occupy, or

(c)occupies as a residence by virtue of any enactment or rule of law giving him the right to remain in occupation or restricting the right of another person to recover possession.

(2)A person is also homeless if he has accommodation but—

(a)he cannot secure entry to it, or

(b)it consists of a moveable structure, vehicle or vessel designed or adapted for human habitation and there is no place where he is entitled or permitted both to place it and to reside in it.

(3)A person shall not be treated as having accommodation unless it is accommodation which it would be reasonable for him to continue to occupy.

(4)A person is threatened with homelessness if it is likely that he will become homeless within 28 days.

it is point (2)(a) above which generates the most legal debate but there is now extensive case law precedent about what is or isn't 'reasonable to continue to occupy'. I'm sure it won't come as a surprise when I tell you that your living circumstances have to be very dire indeed for it to be legally 'unreasonable'.

BlueJug · 02/11/2015 22:21

In the work I do sometimes I meet a lot of couples in perfectly reasonable rented accommodation who want a council house. (Fine - I think everyone should have the right to a council house). Council houses are in short supply in London. The tenants are told by the LA that unless they are evicted the LA does not have a duty to house them.

The advice is to refuse to move, (even though they are in a nice place and could get another nice place), to wait for the possession order and when they are evicted they will be classed as homeless and be temporarily housed and go on the list. It usually happens when the couple are expecting their first child.

I agree that Shelter is brilliant and deserves our support. I agree there is a housing problem in some areas. I do think though that the definition of homeless is manipulated to suit certain ends.

Leavingsosoon · 02/11/2015 22:24

Scott, I'm very appreciative of the time you have taken to explain all this to me and it is certainly thorough. Thank you.

I'm hesitating for posting this therefore as I really don't want you to think I am being 'nit picky' but you have said for allcarols points ,correct, BUT ... and then gone on to explain why these usually wouldn't be included in official stats.

But how do I know? How do I know if my local radio genuinely wants to raise money for children in desperate circumstances or whether it's just a couple of younger teens sharing a room or a family who need to find another place (which I'm totally sympathetic to and is really annoying but not quite dire and desperate either)

This is the problem: I don't know. I just don't know and can't find out.

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Inmybackyard · 02/11/2015 22:24

if that's what it is, is so vague and woolly just about anyone could be classed as homeless through it.

But that's just not the case and I would be amazed if your friend works anywhere near the homelessness department. The legal test of homelessness, as set by the government, is very strict. If you're really interested you can look up the government stats on why people are accepted as homeless - you won't see overcrowding listed.

Leavingsosoon · 02/11/2015 22:25

But according to both scott and carol and shelters own website overcrowding can be used as a definition for homelessness. I'm not saying it necessarily is but that it can be.

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Leavingsosoon · 02/11/2015 22:26

And yes, she does work in homelessness.

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Inmybackyard · 02/11/2015 22:30

What they are trying to explain to you is that statutory overcrowding can be, in rare and unusual circumstances, if it's so bad that the family cannot reasonably occupy their home any longer. Statutory overcrowding is not two teenagers sharing a room. A couple with two teenagers in a one bed flat wouldn't count as statutory homeless, for example.

almondpudding · 02/11/2015 22:31

So it isn't vague and wooly then? There is just some lack of clarity about overcrowding?

Leavingsosoon · 02/11/2015 22:32

But backyard, I can accept that but it doesn't mean that overcrowding can't therefore be used to manipulate statistics.

Really who the hell knows! I've given up expecting the truth from any source!

OP posts:
Inmybackyard · 02/11/2015 22:32

And I've just looked at Shelter's campaign. It's very clear that the 100,000 is only people in temporary accommodation.

Leavingsosoon · 02/11/2015 22:33

Perhaps we were looking at different websites then :)

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Inmybackyard · 02/11/2015 22:35

How is it manipulation? If, and it's a huge if, a family was accepted as homeless because of extreme overcrowding and placed in a B&B they're still living in a B&B.Confused

Leavingsosoon · 02/11/2015 22:38

It might not be extreme overcrowding and they might not be placed in a B & B, I think is the point.

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SouthWestmom · 02/11/2015 22:39

Scott, may I ask a question? Apologies up for the detail - was it LBC you were listening to?

The DC and I had a chat with a homeless bloke in London, and I asked what his hopes of getting somewhere were. He said he'd be fine as he had a tent. Apparently the LA said that unless he was disabled or mentally ill they wouldn't house him. How can this be so?

Leavingsosoon · 02/11/2015 22:40

Single male so low priority? Sorry I'm not Scott :)

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Inmybackyard · 02/11/2015 22:42

It might not be extreme overcrowding and they might not be placed in a B & B, I think is the point.

But then they wouldn't show up in the 100k figure, which is only children living in temporary accommodation...

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