To think if I had paid £6k a year to have my daughters educated by this woman

[catgirl1976]

I'd want my money back

www.buzzfeed.com/patricksmith/head-teacher-tells-girls-you-cant-have-a-career-and-be-a-mum#.xfVk8JvGg

Glad she's stepping down.

I get telling girls there is a glass ceiling, but she's pretty much telling them to roll over and accept that.

I get telling girls that it's a valid choice to choose not to have children, but her message over all is appalling.

Sorry, I meant to address taht to Want2Be.

I agree that the way families from Asia treat their domestic employees, hauling them around the world on holiday (as observed personally at close quarters in hotel swimming pools) doesn't generally meet European standards. Which is my earlier point, really: European families mostly recoil from having domestic setups of several people - it isn't to our taste.

I know families here in Paris with two domestic employees who still look and behave approximately in ways that meet generally accepted standards. More than two and it all goes to pot. Which is also why some of my female friends pull back on their careers - they don't like coming home to their DC shouting at the Filippina nannies and doing awful things like expecting the nanny to hold their book and turn its pages while the DC read in the bath (true story and I have far too many of them).

Fair point Shegot. Making a choice is infinitely preferable to having no choice. But we were talking about whether it was even possible to "have it all". If it were possible for vast swathes of the population, it should be a cinch for the privileged girls at the school in question.

Regen do many women have babies out of obligation? Maybe because of social pressure not to end an unplanned pregnancy but do people really plan babies because it's the done thing? I had babies because my hormones took over my life around my 30th birthday and getting cats didn't satisfy them! It's a hell of a thing to go through just because you feel you ought to.

Stopping thank you!

Not sure how we got on to "servants".I certainly wouldn't have the fucking cheek to refer to my nanny as a servant. Thankfully, I have more respect for other women. However, there is a childminder and nanny board (Home childcare), so if you want to test how incredibly patronising, rude and derogatory that term is, then feel free to pop along and tell them all that you think they are servants.

Here in the US we use the headstart program which is state and federally subsidized here in New Jersey. They are non-profit daycare centers. The staff are excellent (the teacher has completed an early years education degree and are state licensed teachers while the assistants all have an associates degree in early childhood education) and well paid compared to those working in the private centers. As an example, our center has speech and occupational therapists on staff (one of each). The lead teacher in DSs room is very experienced and has worked at that center for more than 10 years. All staff have state health, dental and workers comp insurance plus qualify for the state pension which is extremely generous compared to what is offered by the private centers, when it is offered.

Wages of the assistants is $12/hr but they pay nothing for their insurance premiums or contributions to their pension. The teachers are paid $35-40k a year depending on length of service and again pay nothing for their insurance premiums or pension contributions. Lower salaries on the face of it but not when you consider their benefits package. The assistants work about 50 hours a week which brings their annual salary to about $30k a year. They all start with 10 days paid holiday on top of federal holidays and work up to 15 days a year. This is generous compared to private providers, most of whom do not provide paid time off.

Surely the words used to describe domestic employees are not really important? What matters is how they are, in fact, treated.

In Paris everyone has a "nounou" - a sort of nanny/housekeeper who does everything no-one else wants to do. The fact that "nounou" is short for "nourrice" (nanny) doesn't really help them: they are servants in all but name who get to do all the dirty work. Might be better to be called "maid" and actually not have to do so much crap...

Bobo Quite and I treat my household staff with respect. It starts by not referring to them as servants.

I can't help but wonder if I have entered a parallel universe. The words used to describe someone working for me, either in the workplace or in my home are extremely important. I would NEVER be so disrespectful as to refer to anyone working for me as a servant.

"Household staff" sounds a bit Madame l'Ambassadrice though :)

Well I only have my PT nanny. The others are not employees but services purchased when needed.

Want2B, headstart is for a small minority of families though and is not representative of nursery costs - or working conditions - generally in the US.

18 years ago our daycare bill for one infant was almost $1600 a month - and didn't include food or nappies.

I agree with others that the teen years can be the hardest to maintain 2 high flying careers (or even two full time jobs). I also agree that not every child suits wraparound care. Some children are fine with it (although even the 2 of mine who were fine, still preferred being home with one of us after school) but some just can't keep it together for that long a day.

It is a conversation we should be having with our daughters and our sons.

I'm in France, I have a nounou. She's certainly not a servant doing shit I can't be bothered with.
I also have a cleaner and a dog walker. Oh and a gardener, but generally that's not a problem, is it, it's only the traditionally female jobs that we should all be doing ourselves ..
They all provide a service and are no more my servants than a dentist or accountant.

Canyou Its open to all in my town and while they heavily subsidize those who are low income working parents and they get priority if places are limited, it is very affordable for those who are above that threshold.

Of course you need to adapt to the needs of your DC. Right now the way we have care structured works for our DC and it works for us too. I too think the teenage years are the worst. There is next to nothing after school for those who are 12+. It scares me and my hope is that by that stage DH and I can plan our day so one of us is home from 3pm onwards during the week.

I've heard it argued that for women to get to the top there needs to be more in the lower levels, the ones underneath and the levels underneath that - otherwise you only get a few coming through. Building capacity and the range of talent.

The more women you fail to retain at lower levels then the less are left to go for the top jobs.

So in lots of ways we must help women remain in the workplace in some form as a first step. I think that is happening much more these days...when I first graduated there were no nurseries where we lived and graduates did drop out fairly quickly. Now of course people ask how long are you having for maternity leave, not are you going back to work!

My mother was about the only one that worked when I was at school...things change, but it takes time.

I used the term servant deliberately in order to be provocative as I think there are double and triple standards at play. The push for more women to get into the workplace often goes hand in hand with calls for more affordable childcare without anyone having to pay more tax. The result of this seems to be appallingly bad pay for the vast majority of childcare workers and an increasing need for low paid people to work long hours fulfilling domestic tasks and childcare duties that working parents do not have the time or inclination to do themselves. Enabling more people to get into the workplace just means a need for more and ever cheaper domestic labour, as it has to cost less than the income being earned by those paying for it. In my view it is quite hypocritical to claim from a position of extreme wealth that you don't have servants, but domestic staff, while simultaneously claiming you want more people to be in a position like you. You aren't going to get more people into the position where childcare is more affordable without squeezing down evermore on the status, rights and pay of those you employ to the point that they will feel like servants even if that is not what you choose to call them. We've already had talk on this thread of Filippino nannies in Paris. I wonder why they aren't French nannies that are being used?...

I think it is important for all children to have good, realistic careers advice, which allows them to get an insight into the realities of various careers - i.e. Some careers will require very long hours/anti-social hours/only be possible to work in central London/large cities/involve lots of overseas travel, and others will be more flexible.

I had a friend who chose to become a dentist, right from school age as she knew it would be possible to have a good lucrative career on part-time hours, she could do it in any part of the country, and she knew she wanted a job that would fit in around having a family eventually. And guess what? She was right! She pretty much 'has it all' in my opinion.

Far better in my opinion to think and plan ahead, than sleep walk into a situation where you are in a career which is not really compatible with family life (and your partner is the same), and you are stuck having to make the choice between pursuing decent career (not necessarily super high flying - just decent) and being able to take the time to be available for your kids and doing some crappy, low paid, 'mum job' despite being highly educated. And to be fair, why should any man be in that position either?

It was never even a consideration when I was at school how my career choice would be affected by having a family - I wish it had been. It's all very well saying it shouldn't be, but for many many people, the reality is that their careers have dive bombed because whatever they chose to pursue was just not compatible with having a family when the other parent was working in an equally inflexible career.

Roundaboutthetown so it is your preference that we return to the good old days where women had no choices.

My preferred option for childcare when my children were very young was for childminders. These were, in my case, women mainly personal friends who had chosen to stay at home with their own children and were happy to earn money on the side minding other children to improve their family finances. We do not have the same childminder system here in Ireland so most of the childminders I used were completely unqualified in childcare but were trusted friends something that is easier when you are from a smaller country I suppose and experienced parents the best qualification for childminders in my own opinion. I have had cleaners, one of whom came to Ireland with absolutely no English and cleaning has been a relatively well paid job for her circumstance. She earns €4 over the minimum wage per hour which is not bad when initially you did not speak a word of English. These roles are absolutely mutually beneficial for parties.

I think the formalised system of childcare via nurseries is not a good system unless someone is willing to pay properly for it and I think formalised childminders are probably absolutely necessary where you do not personally know the childminder but given I have known one of my childminders for literally my entire life I do not see what someone like Ofsted or childcare training, she is a qualified nurse with 4 children of her own, would bring to the table except an additional financial burden.

DP and I are both pretty successful in our careers and have two kids, I'm not recognizing the "but of course it's impossible to do without abandoning your children who will hate and resent you when you are old because you FARMED THEM OUT TO STRANGERS AND NEVER SAW THEM" story at all. Main things that work for us:

• I had children with a partner who does child/household stuff 50/50
• Neither of us have a job that relies on presenteeism/hours spent at the office, so we don't work silly hours and are generally both home in the evening and don't work weekends
• Both of us can work from home if necessary
• We have superb childcare
• We have very short commutes
• I have lots of family nearby
• We both have some work travel (him slightly more than me) but we try to balance it out. And seriously, I'm supposed to worry that if I go to the US for a week "I will never get that week in my children's life back!!!!!" and will resent it on my deathbed? Normally they enjoy a bit of daddy/grandparents/auntie time and then leap on me when I get back (the one I'm still breastfeeding in particular).

Low paid and squeezed? My English nanny earns £26kpa plus pension contribution plus annual bonus. She lives in and so has no rent, bills or food costs. Her accommodation is a double room, own lounge and her own bathroom. She gets 7 weeks holiday (including bank holidays) and drives a luxury car. Yes, I do want other women to reach their potential at work and put personal time and effort to support them to do so through mentoring, participating in work shadowing and other leadership initiatives. I pay a lot of tax, have no problem with that, and have no idea why childcare in this country is so expensive and would happily that more of my tax went to support childcare costs. I struggle to reconcile being accused of having double and triple standards with those pesky little things called facts.

leady
Some of those things you listed are luck, some perhaps planned.
You are lucky to have family nearby and want to help, perhaps your work was planned win an eye to the future?

its interesting to see what makes work possible for people who have caring responsibilities. What tips and tricks there are, perhaps on a limited budget? That's the sort of information which may be more helpful.

I think it's very sensible to aim for a short commute and to live near family who can plug gaps. Those are two of the biggest time and money savers that exist.

And how many people do you think could afford to pay for your nanny and provide her with so much accommodation,etc? Obviously other peoples' childcare providers are going to have to have considerably lower pay and conditions if childcare costs are to be affordable, which is what you say you want, Blingly. By the way, if you nanny gets married and has children of her own, will you accommodate all them, too? Or is this a job incompatible with the employee's own family life?

The point about domestic employment being incompatible with family life is a good one. It was ever thus.

Actually a lot of them were planned to a certain extent - I wouldn't have had children with my partner if I hadn't known we were on the same page with regard to divvying up responsibilities, I didn't have children until I was in the right place work-wise (I knew I'd gone into the right job when my then manager told me that she would think less of me if I spent extra hours in the office every day, which frankly makes sense even if you don't have children), we delayed buying a house until we could afford something that meant we were unlikely to have crazy commutes (fantastic transport links, close to city centre) and where friends with older kids already in the area had childcare and school recommendations. Having so much family nearby was luck, I'll grant you that.

(well, having so many family members in the same area was luck, choosing to live in the same city as them wasn't)

Also, these were decisions that we made as a couple (DP's job is similarly not presentee-tastic). Not decisions I made because making sure there's work-life balance in the family is the woman's job.