To think I'm NOT allowed to punch members of the public unconcious no matter what my company tells me?

[WhoTheFuckIsSimon]

company is an nhs hospital

Annual study day today and of all the bollocks ive ever heard I reckon this takes the biscuit.

According to the fire officer on this formal study day if there's a fire and someone is refusing to evacuate "as an nhs employee you are allowed to punch them unconcious and then drag them out"

He wasn't joking, not at all.

Questioning colleagues later on its something he's said to other groups on other days.

I really don't think he's right. Surely even a police officer can't punch someone unconcious? What happened to informed choice! People are allowed to make stupid decisions if they want.

What if I do an unlucky punch and kill someone with one punch? What if I struggle to knock them out? Do I just keep battering them?

And most importantly dragging uncooperative people out of burning buildings is surely going to slow down my own escape!

Think we had a long conversation about that case (it was a while ago now!!) about whether it would meet the criteria for oblique intention i.e. would the sailor realise that by pushing the frozen man into the sea he would almost certainly die, therefore satisfying malice aforethought. It was a pretty split class but I think we came down on manslaughter - I used murder in my retelling for dramatic effect xD

Sorry chaps! That and the case of the cannibalistic crew mates eating the cabin boy are pretty much all I remember about defences at the minute (totally missed the point of the thread)

Oh, to add, the sailor punched the frozen man to force him off the ladder into the sea so people could get free. Somehow, I completely missed the point of the case when I wrote it out. In fact, I'm just going to slink away in total shame

That trainer was trying to be Mr Billy Big Bollocks making out he'd knock someone unconscious and drag them out. All done to shock his audience. Utter pile of crap.

I had to go and look for more info on the ladder incident.

^1987, an incident occurred during the sinking of the ferry Herald of Free Enterprise at Zeebrugge, during which an Army corporal and dozens of other passengers were trapped on the sinking ferry. 59 Their only means of escape was via a rope-ladder, but a man was blocking it and was frozen in panic in the midst of rising waters. “After repeatedly shouting at him to move, the corporal ordered those below him to pull the man off the ladder” because his immobility was seriously jeopardizing the safety of others who were in danger of drowning. “They did so and he fell into the water and drowned, while the others made their escape.” 60

The coroner reported that the killing appeared to be “a reasonable act of what is known as self-preservation . . . that also includes in my judgment, the preservation of other lives; such killing is not necessarily murder at all.” 61 No criminal charges were brought.^

I suspect the issue with this incident is that whilst the order was given to pull the man off the ladder, there was no intention or reasonable belief that he might fall into the sea. Plus, pulling him off was the bare minimum that could be done to ensure the safety of others. The coroner could very well have taken a different view if the order had been to stab him to death

Thinking about that sentence, people aren't allowed to make stupid decision, are they? Because a "stupid" decision, like staying in a burning building, would be considered the same as trying to jump off a bridge, and in that case the police or doctors can section you for your own benefit.

Slightly off the point, but no. The mere fact that you're jumping off a bridge doesn't amount to evidence that you lack mental capacity and should be sectioned. And it's a fundamental underlying principle of the Mental Capacity Act that "a person is not to be treated as unable to make a decision merely because he makes an unwise decision."

But surely "in the moment" you could restrain someone from jumping off a bridge (or whatever) until you were able to get them assessed for mental capacity?

I think if he was serious he needs to be fired. But the NHS can't fire anyone!

You're probably damned if you do and damned if you don't tbh. Having to be in that situation and rescue those who were uncompliant and lacking mental capacity would be terrible. But those who are mentally capable and don't want to leave? I'd tell them to go to a safer place and then leave them!

A relative of mine worked at a college in a tower block. They were responsible for clearing their own floor (10th floor). They were told by management that if they had students in wheelchairs they still could not use the lifts and if they were unable to carry the person down 10 flights of stairs they should tell them they were being left in the building until the fire service arrived!

Probably about as difficult as it is to reason with an adult with autism I would have thought?

Children generally trigger people's protective instincts. Adults don't.

I would definitely put myself in danger to save a child, not so much for an adult. A child is blameless for freezing or doing something stupid in a moment of panic, I dare say it would be expected. I would expect an adult to keep a level head and evacuate according to procedure. I know it's unfair to expect that of an adult with disabilities, but most people would still save a child over an adult.

I know it's a serious subject, but this thread is hilarious!

I work in a hospital. Luckily, in an administrative wing, because my colleague once set off the fire alarm by making toast. The whole wing had to evacuate. The firemen were extremely, extremely pissed off and gave us all a huge bollocking lecture. The stupid thing was though... her toast wasn't burnt. Once we got back in, she retrieved it from the toaster and ate it!

I think the person would have to be thrown off the ladder ,child or adult.sixty lives should always outweigh one

..

My work colleague decided to microwave a newspaper once to dry it out. That went well
Surprisingly they haven't taken the microwaves off us yet

Leaving vulnerable people on x floor and instructing the fire brigade where they are is perfectly normal. Most old buildings that can't have lifts fitted will do that. In blocks of flats the upper floors are instructed to await rescue from their balconies

I used to work in an administrative building in Barts, where the student nurse halls also were. We were evacuated on a weekly basis because students had smuggled a contraband toaster in. The Fire brigade were not impressed. I was not impressed - i worked on the 12th floor - having a sanctioned 'punch someone unconscious' up my sleeve, might have just sweetened the pill.

Oooh, I had nhs fire training once. What stuck in my head the most was the 20 minute ranty lecture on not keeping your wheelie bins in your front yard at home because of arsonists. Wtf relevance this had to my workplace I do not know.

I think restraining someone would be ok in an emergency, but not punching them. A fight could put you both in danger.

But surely "in the moment" you could restrain someone from jumping off a bridge (or whatever) until you were able to get them assessed for mental capacity?

You can restrain them anyway, the need to save life would be an absolute defence to any assault claim. You don't have to worry about their mental capacity.

I assume youre supposed to keep punching them until theres a decent chance that they wont remember who did it when they wake up ;)

Friends colleague at an NHS hospital dropped their phone in the loo and microwaved it to try do dry it out. Most worryingly, the only objection she got from other colleagues prior to doing it was that it was unhygienic!

And we trust these people to save our lives!?