Was AIBU re our cleaner

[Lipstickandlashes]

DH and I are in two minds whether we were too harsh so genuinely seeking opinions.

We've used the same agency for the last five years. During that time we've had two different cleaners (both excellent) for a couple of hours twice a week.

Four weeks ago our regular cleaner (with us for two years) got a new job outside the industry so the owner of the agency assigned a new lady.

The cleaning hasn't been quite as good as previously but I put that down to newness and getting used to the property etc.

However, yesterday I came home and immediately clocked that something was off as the door wasn't double locked as usual. I went inside and could tell someone had been in the house (things moved around a bit) but only one of the bathrooms had been "cleaned" (still filthy), the carpet hadn't been hoovered and the draining board was full of still-dirty plates that looked like they'd been rinsed without detergent and heaped up, in the process cracking our teapot.

No note left about the breakage or lack of cleaning (e.g. she'd been called away in an emergency) all really weird, so I called the agency owner.

After she'd made several calls she established that our normal cleaner had decided to go on holiday and given our house keys to her "best friend" to do the job.

Neither we, nor the agency owner, have ever met this person or have a clue who they are.

Not only was the flat uncleaned and our things broken but we have two rescue cats who can't go outside; luckily they hid under the bed but we'd have been devastated if they'd escaped.

So in short I was fucking fuming that a stranger had been in our home and told the agency owner (I was cross but civil) that we'd no longer need her company's services.

DH was in full agreement but thought this morning we may have been too harsh as it was one of her employees who was a dick, not her, and that could happen to any of us. My feeling is that as owner, it's her responsibility to supply safe, sensible people and we clearly can't trust her to do that any longer.

AIBU?

Cider yes it's only one criteria, but it's a criteria and yes just because they can substitute themselves with an untrained 'non-cleaner' doestn't mean they SHOULD but people do what they perhaps shouldn't all the time if they think they can.

I think the fact that domestic cleaners are, for the most part, unsupervised means that this scenario is begging to happen unless the company has sufficient control of the person and that to me suggests its a liability not to employ the staff directly. Human nature dictates that out of several people someone will probably do something just because they can rather than because it makes sense or is acceptable, just because they can they think it's fine to do.

The agency will probably not use her services again now but at the time she probably didn't think of that. I honestly find some staff do need direct training and direct instructions on the most simple of issues, common sense does not prevail in every instance.

This is one of the many reasons I would never have "staff" of any type.
A lot of aggro / risk to save 4hrs a week - having to tidy beforehand, deal with agency, lists of what cleaner will/wont do, cleaner on holiday,cleaner broke vacuum/needs more cleaning materials... cleaner does poor job...how do you know they dont use the same cloth for the sink as they do for the toilet? Like horror stories from hotel staff. maybe we need a "Probs w Cleaner" topic?

Please clarify re the cats? Does ordinary cleaner know what to do with them?

Hi left, yes, our regular cleaner knows the drill with the cats (or is supposed to at least).

I see. I have my rescue cat on my lap now!

Harsh

you are being ridiculous. Apart from the fact the OP did not want this stranger in her home at all- this person was there without her permission or knowledge- it is part of her contract with the cleaning agency that dishes will be done and so not unreasonable to expect these things to be done.

It is neither demeaning nor unfair to expect someone to complete the duties they have agreed to do as specified in their contract with you. If part of the contract is to clean bathrooms and do dishes, then that is what the person is being paid for. They do not HAVE to take on that role if they feel that the work required of them is demeaning or something they would rather not do.

Cleaning up for a cleaner really???

Hold on, asking a cleaner to do washing up is demeaning but fine to ask him or her to clean the bog? Our cleaner always washes up all the pans from the previous night's dinner, cleans out the grill pan etc. Never crossed my mind that this might be an unreasonable thing to ask.

Harsh who do you think cleans toilets if not cleaners? You think cleaning toilets is a "demeaning job"? You think the world is full of uncleaned toilets then? Because not every toilet is located in a private house where the bottoms of the owners shit roses.

OP - your reaction was perfectly rational. Concerning that the agency aren't even answering their telephones to you now. I'd invoice for the locks change, and be prepared to sue in a small claim if they don't pay up. They should have policies in place to cover holidays and to ensure things like this don't happen - such as returning customers' keys at the end of every cleaning session.

harsh thinks that washing dishes is demeaning. Surely if the work is for two hours, does it matter whether part of those two hours is spent washing dishes?

As a professional cleaning company we ask that the house is picked up to a reasonable standard in preparation for our team's visit on cleaning day but we will do a small amount of tidying up first. We do not offer housekeeping services because we are focussed on delivering a very detailed cleaning service.

It's about communication at the first meeting, every service must decide for themselves what is and isn't included within the scope of their service, some will wash up others will not. I'm to understand from my involvement in the cleaning industry that washing up is not usually included but many will do a few dished to get them out of the way for the clean to take place.

Our policy is to train staff to use their common sense with this, if there are just a few dishes wash them but if there is a sinkful or any on the worktop just leave them, take them out of the sink and then focus on the cleaning.

We are not a timed service and offer a complete detailed service which must be maintained to our standards at each clean therefore our staff need the house to be reasonably tidy and clutter free to be prepared for this. We have no clients who take advantage because the type of clients we have love a high standard of cleaning and understand they can't have both housekeeping and detailed cleaning within the same price, it's one r the other, they always want our detailed clean.

If I go to quote a really untidy home I will ask if they prepare the house before their cleaners come in and if not I will say that we can help with organisation as well as cleaning but we will need to factor it into the price at the beginning as it costs us more in labour costs to complete such a service to our standards. The vast majority of people understand it's either one or the other or I need a price they don't want to pay and will then agree to prepare the house as required. This is our service, others are different.

I think the reason a lot of cleaning services say an outright 'no' to washing up in particular is not because it's demeaning of course it isn't, but it does present a health and safety issue of cleaners being cut by sharp knives in the water or broken glass. Both of which have happened to me when I was a younger cleaner working alone. Now I wan liable for the care of our employees' health and safety I would not allow more than a few visable pots to be washed so both scope of work included for the price and health and safety factor into the decision not to offer much washing up.

This is not a difficult issue for a cleaning business to tackle as most clients want the house to be as clean as possible at our best price instead of just tidied up then a quick lick round so we are most often all on the same page on this issue from the start.

All well and good Dangly but people who have a cleaner come in for a couple of days a week for a couple of hours don't want deep cleaning, they want a maintenance clean and no reason why that should not include washing dishes. I'm sorry but I really don't buy the " health and safety" angle; unless you leave all the dishes in a basin of stagnant water so the cleaner can't tell what's in there it should not be beyond a cleaner's ability to wash up a few knives and glasses without severing an artery. Same way they would in their own house.

cleaners who shouldn't clean dirty things? wow i mean i really thought it was in the job description? are we now going to have to invent a new job like they did with nurses you know where the nurses do paperwork/the doctor work and the hcps do the actual nursing? so the cleaner does the tidying what do we call the person who actually deals with dirty dishes and skid marks in toilets?

I always tidy up for my cleaner. So that she can clean unfettered by clutter. I don't clean though!

Op sounds like you've got a plan. Hope it's all sorted soon.

Jessie Well when you sever an artery in you own house your employer is not held accountable, if one of our staff did that then I would be facing a lawsuit, it depends upon the service model provided it doesn't matter if you are 'buying' the health and safety issues or not, as long as our customers are buying it and we remain fully booked and in demand that's what matters to me.

Health and safety is an issue services must give due consideration and apply boundaries to the scope of their services.

Within the scope of our general maintenance services we will only wash a few pots, that is where we lay the boundary, other services are all different, as I said, we are there to clean the house not pick up or tidy we will do so but it isn't cheap and most of our customers like to pay for cleaning only.

Clients who want more housekeeping/organisation will go to another company not so much us, we deliver what OUR clients want and other services will deliver what THEIR clients want, client recommendation finds us many of our clients and they already know what we do, we will take them as a client if we feel they are a good match for our company and most times they are, sometimes I refer them to another company nearby as they will match one another better.

Dangly if I encountered a company that immediately started mentioning health and safety out of context the way in which yours does, I'd avoid them like the plague. The Health and Safety at Work Act 1974 is criminal legislation enforced by the Health and Safety Executive, who I think would find it rather odd to find that normal residential household items such as plates and cutlery were to be avoided. I think what you mean is the potential of being sued for personal injury by one of your employees under negligence, for which I would expect you to have the normal employer's liability insurance (required by statute) in place to cover, plus any specific insurance cover you deemed necessary.

There are far greater hazards in place in a home than cutlery and plates, and rather than reassuring me, I'd find your misinterpretation of the HSAWA74 worrying.

Added to that, the only properties I've ever needed to organise deep cleans for are holiday lets or long term rentals belonging to clients, and there simply is no-one available in the way you envisage to go around removing dirty plates in the way you imagine. We did sometimes encounter over-grandiose trades and cleaners, and generally you have to dissuade them from continuing, as they run away with your time and produce little in the way of useful results (and laugh about them in the office afterwards, where we'd have been sacked if we dared to have such an unhelpful attitude at work).

It sounds an odd service that you offer - lecturing people in their own homes and instructing them what to do - I think I'd rather be left in peace than end up being coerced into what sounds like almost preparing for royalty to enter your own home, and paying for the privilege.

Scremersford just quickly because i have to dash now, all professional cleaning services have a duty of care towards their employees and although I don't especially mention health and safety to clients unless they request work beyond the scope of our service.

This conversation is not the norm or usually necessary because the scope of our usual service is providing what our clients want and more, we are offering a very specific service level which is trained out across our staff and we are responsible for the wear and tear of their bodies over the years.

We do not offer one-off deep cleans or holiday lets or anything non-regular. when it was just myself and my husband we could do end-of-tenancy cleans but we can't now we haven't the staff, we are booked up with regulars and haven't the staff to do these, they are simply not within the scope of services available. We just offer a premium level of service which is what OUR clients require, if they need something different we have a local company who will sometimes take them as they obviously offer different services that us (because they are a different company) is I were being 'grandious' or whatever I would not be seeking solutions for clients who we simply cannot help. I wish to see everyone get the service level that is right for them and it's wrong to try to offer what you can't just to squeeze another client onto your schedule.

We have extemely comprehensive cover with our insurance company but we are not covered for certain things for which we would be held liable were we to have our staff include, such as heavy lifting or climbing higher than our steps. I wouldn't have them do these anyway, nor would any of my cleaning business owner associates. It's a responsibility towards others we take seriously.

I

Dangly we are responsible for the wear and tear of their bodies over the years.

You're having a laugh now surely?

We are not talking about ex miners claiming for emphesema! You are not responsible in law for wear and tear to your employees' bodies! You may, if you are negligent, be liable for personal injuries they suffer in the workplace as a result of your negligence (which is why you are required by statute to have employers' liability insurance). But to suggest that employers are liable for wear and tear to their employees bodies in the normal course of work is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. This would obviously affect even office- based employers, since the average employee has to negotiate steps, sit at a desk and use a computer or pen and so on! Strangely, there have been no cases!

You have now mentioned "health and safety" 5 times with no mention of a workplace health and safety assessment which would not, I can assure you, include normal household implements as a no-go zone. I'm beginning to smell a rat...

Maybe you should consider offering a service instead where your cleaners instruct clients over the phone over how to clean their own homes, and give them little lecturers on all the dangers?

Blimey. ..I'm suing NHS due to wear and tear on my body for last 35 years then....They owe me a mint !!!!!

Oh my dear, the servant problem!

Gosh, the mind boggles at washing up being a health and safety issue and I was made to do it from the age of six

We had problems using agencies and there high staff turnaround, I would have been livid too.

We now have a lovely lady (who I also know personally) and pay her directly, she's a little more expensive than the agency (only £1 an hour more) but is amazing.

I have never heard of this attitude from any prospective client and I am beginning to smell a rat myself, most of our clients are really glad we are taking good care of our cleaners in this way because they value our work and know it takes a lot of physical stooping and bending all day long to get their homes up to this level of clean. all of our cleaning staff work full-time, I would not want to lose staff for any reason, we cannot grow our business without staff, clients are plenty staff are very thin on the ground unfortunately.

I am finding it strange that this would be questioned, very strange! Funnily enough Potato one of our clients IS sueing the NHS for that same thing as they had her lifting when she shouldn't. We would never take a client with these attitudes, not that there are any in existence that I've ever met in my 18 years of cleaning! We have currently 70 plus clients on our books and not one I can think of would treat cleaners like this, they often make it clear how much they value our staff every day. Thank god that's the reality.

Bizarre attitude to take advantage of people in their working environment and then expect them to stay with you for years, mine would not, it's hard enough to find anyone to clean to the standard we expect and you have to pay well over minimum wage to get the sort of person I want to work for us. I will never push my luck with their health and safety, I know what guidelines are expected of me within this industry and will be adhering to these.

I have employed a cleaner through an agency for fourteen years and I would be livid at this, OP. I usually get the same person so I have come to know her quite well. If she is sick or on holiday they send someone else. She doesn't keep the keys, the agency does. And no way would she ever "phone a friend"! I always thought she was employed by the agency, tbh, but maybe I'm wrong on that.