To tell ds1 he can't go to choir?

[SummerNights1986]

Ds1 is nearly 8 and came out of school this week clutching a consent form for the school choir, which meets twice a week after school. They take dc from Year 3 so this is a new opportunity for him.

He's really excited, really, really wants to sign up.

BUT he is tone deaf. Completely. He is good at plenty of other things and has no lack of activities he does already...but there's no nice way to say it, I have never heard any child with such a truly awful singing voice. He even loses the tune singing simple nursery rhymes, and always has since a toddler.

It's kind of never been brought up. I'm not in the habit of telling the dc they're fabulous at everything (you know the type). But I mean, when your 3/4/5 year old sings the songs they're learning at school for you, you automatically go 'Oh that was lovely, well done for remembering it all' or similar. Which is just what I've done with ds, whilst gritting my teeth. So he doesn't know or realise he can't sing as far as I can tell. He's mentioned asking the teacher if he can sing a song he's learnt recently to see if the other kids know it (old school, unusual song). He seems quite keen to do a solo

I'm genuinely worried he'll be made fun of and laughed at, and I don't want him to go and be brought crashing down by the other kids

Do I:
A. Make up an excuse as to why he can't go (such as I have to do X on those nights, maybe next year, and hope he loses interest)
B. Tell him he can't sing and can't go (gently)
C. Let him go and hope for the best.

Iwas that was part of Castro's point: The 3 teachers all said they could teach anyone too.

I don't subscribe to the everyone can sing thought. My dsis who is multitalented in lots of ways is tone deaf. She can learn a tune laboriously, and although the notes are all but in tune, it sounds strained and unnatural. And yes, she has spent many hours trying desperately with various professionals.
Dh couldn't sing in tune until he was about 12yo and he has perfect pitch, so could tell you exactly which notes he should be singing, but physically he couldn't produce them. Once his voice broke he developed a fairly nice tenor.

Going back to the op.
Firstly, a lot of children can't sing at 8yo, and their voices develop naturally. When I was at primary the teacher used to reckon most couldn't sing in tune at 7yo, most could by 10yo. So that's usual.
Joining the choir is slightly more awkward. Yes ideally no one will care and isn't it nice all can join in. In the real world, there's a chance someone will say something, one of his friends or more likely an older one. Not even necessarily meaning to be nasty, but it could still knock his confidence.
I remember watching a group of choirs. One of them had a loud droner in it. They positioned themselves with a noticeable gap round her and ot was very clear they found her singing offputting. Afterwards she was surrounded by a happy crowd of friends so it wasn't they didn't like her. This choir was younger though and I'd suspect that the likelihood of comments would increase with age.
I think having a quick word with the teacher is good. You can probably tell a lot from her reaction. If she says they have a few of those every year, then don't worry and let him join. If she looks horrified then I probably would find an excuse.

He can still sing for the fun and social aspect. There will be a few crap singers but it won't matter because it's not a professional choir, it's just an light hearted after school activity.

I was never allowed to sing at primary school, so if really has amusia, then I doubt they'll force the horridness on others. I think there's a difference between not being able to sing in tune as a kid and amusia.

Even most people with amusia can be trained to sing in tune though, it's just not worth the effort it takes everyone!

Anyway of course let him do it!

Ah let him go!

I did try to join the choir but got banned very quickly !

And yes, each of the teachers was TOTALLY confident that past teachers hadn't tried hard enough, or were just teaching me wrongly.

I think i am unteachable because I am proper tone deaf. I can't hear if a note is higher or lower than another. I can tell it is different, sure, but no idea of pitch. So getting me to sing a note back doesn't work, I can't just tell so I fail at the first hurdle.

The only way I could tune a guitar, for example (without using an electronic tuner) is to feel the strings for resonance, all the notes just sound like notes, slightly different but not discernibly different.

It is a slight regret that I can't sing, but I've come to terms with it!!

My ds2 joined a choir at 8. He was following his older brother who had a beautiful treble voice (and now has a great baritone).

He sang at the time like I do - one note can't really hear a tune or a rhythm. I would describe myself as don't deaf, so I guess I would say he was too.

They taught him to sing. By year 6 he got a solo part in the school play. Now at 15 he still sings in choirs. Ok he doesn't have the widest range and will never be called on as a soloist but as part of a choir he is very useful. Most importantly he really enjoys it. Just let him try it.

Castro - just out of interest, what is your experience of listening to music? Do you enjoy it - and do you discern between songs/tunes you like and those you don't?

Sorry, it's a tangent, but I'm kind of fascinated...

I was never allowed to sing at primary school

I was forced to sing in primary school. Punished by teachers if I hadn't. That's why I'm so familiar with the great glee other children take in mocking kids who can't sing. I've had heaps of horrible comments and reactions from adults, too, mind.

(Suppose I'm a slow learner)

I had the same dilemma with DD1 and went for C - she went for most of year 3 then got bored and left. Shes now 13, and aware that she doesn't always sing in tune. Shes really enjoying learning the clarinet, and playing an instrument seems to have improved her musical ear a little. She does now sometimes sing in tune, but not always, and has quite a narrow range.

multi (love the name btw, are you an Asimov fan?)

I listen to and really enjoy music, most types, classical through to pop. It all has structure, timbre, beat etc that I can enjoy and obviously I can hear that there are changes in pitch, even if I know I'm not getting the subtleties like someone else might.

I can kind of play a couple of instruments, guitar, piano and a brass. (Grade 3 sort of standard!) As long as I can get a predetermined note I can learn, though my teachers always felt I played by rote with little feeling no matter how technically competent I got. I wouldn't be able to do violin or trombone or anything where you have to find the pitch yourself for each note.

Obviously I absolutely cannot play by ear. I am always amazed by musicians who listen to a track then just pick up a guitar and play what they have just heard. It just does not compute! The first time I saw some one do that it just blew me away. Didn't realise it was sort of normal for anyone who is musically inclined.

Thanks for the reply, castro (and yes, I love Asimov )

I'm a flautist, of sorts - got to Grade 5 or so 25 years ago, but mostly play by ear. I hung around in folk clubs from the age of 12 or so and can pick out a tune -and add a harmony - pretty easily (although the more complex jigs and reels are beyond my limited technical ability). If playing by ear interests you, you might want to take ten minutes to watch this - it's incredible (despite the irritating Buzzfeed-style header):

www.wimp.com/musical-savant/?utm_source=facebook.com/

Hmmm this is very interesting. I can't read music (dyscalculia) but I can sing by ear and can sort of feel out the notes? For example I'm an alto, and if I'm at a church thing where there are songs pitched higher than I can comfortably sing I can sort of work out my own pitch. But as a churchgoer I sing more than most people do in everyday life so perhaps that's related.

thanks multi I'll take a look.

You sound dead cool! I've been invited to join in with my guitar at a regular open folk night at my local. In one way I'd love to, but I just doubt I'd be any use. Can't sing, can't play by ear!

Once the kids are bigger I'm sort of tempted to start playing again and then go join em. But I'm aware I'd need so, so much practice and a million YouTube tutorials just to be able pick up a few tunes. :)

Castro can you read music?

Let him join the choir. Ds can't sing, but enjoys going to the school choir, I doubt he will be bothered about being in a choir when he is 20, but for now, he likes it, so I go with it. He may well improve while he is there, but for now, he gets a lot of confidence from singing in a group and is enjoying a new group situation with his friends.

I dunno, Castro - clearly music means something to you; your heart just won't let you let it go....

But this seems different to me...I don't think singing is necessarily something you can 'learn' unless you have a decent voice to begin with iyswim? Maybe you could improve an average voice into a good one...but a completely tuneless voice I don't think there's much chance for tbh

Another voice (!) of dissent on this. When I was seven, my pitch was so all over the place that I was told to mime in the school choir's competition performances.

I ended up studying singing at university, did well and made decent money teaching and performing in my youth.

And yet another here saying he may well improve and should give it a go.
DS was totally, toe-curlingly tuneless at 8 and was the school's Christmas soloist at 13.

He's currently doing Music A-level (badly, but that's another thread!)

Put it another way: unless he learns to sing in tune, you could have to put up with the tuneless droning for years.

Send him!

As several pp have said above, singing with other people is good for you, physically, mentally and emotionally. I would certainly let your son do it. If he is really hopeless he will probably come to the decision to pursue other interests himself.

multivac also fully amusic, tried learning guitar as a kid, failed miserably, can't sing enjoy lots of music but rarely if it has no singing with the music.

C. I agree with pps that it is very unusual to be completely tone deaf - he might be, but more likely being with lots of other singers and having practice will help.

If you're really worried, sign him up and then have a quick word with the teacher.

Yes, I can - or could read music. Did grade 3 horn at secondary school. Haven't tried since I will admit.

multi yes, I really love music. In some respects it is very good for me, I'm a bit of an obsessive over achiever in many things, so I've always enjoyed having a 'gentle' hobby that I won't ever get competitive with, just some me time.

I do want to get myself down to that folk group. As long as I can steel myself to repeat 87times ' no I REALLY cant sing. Yes I've tried to learn. No, no one can teach me I'll just happily strum these 3 chords'