Why do people join the army....? and why should we honour them?

[LittleRedSparke]

Ok - i have my tin hat at the ready, and am ready to be flamed.....

This is genuine (i post a bit so you can see this is not my first and i havent nc'd)

First off - I appreciate those who fight for the rights of my country.... but I am not sure why we should raise them to a 'god-like' status, like you see on facebook etc

Yes, they're doing a good job - but no one forces them to do it, as far as I know (prepared to be told i am wrong of course) they join up of their own free will? I read 'how wonderful they are, and how they only do it because of some saint like calling they have'

I dont mean to offend anyone - but I have a friend who is ex-forces, and on occasion he mentions stuff about forces being let down by the government - even though he wasnt there for long, only joined up as he didnt have anywhere to live and no prospects, he's come out - and now has no prospects and has some kind of (non army related) injury, and I just got to thinking.....

It's the whole hero thing that actually gets people's backs up, but that isn't due to anyone in the Forces but the red-top press. It's the same as how nurses are always "angels". Some people in all walks of live do heroic things - I think we all like to think that we would save the child if the situation arose. The bottom line is that they are all just normal human beings doing their job - after going into that job knowing what it entails.

I am part of a team of researchers who are designing a service that will help possibly millions of NHS patients. Are we heroes? No, we are just people who are doing our jobs.

To be honest I think we should be doing more, not less, but when it comes to the daily oppression from governments towards their citizens a lot of people seem to have an "I'm alright jack" attitude.

I think we have a responsibility as a country where women can work, dress how they choose and leave the house on their own, to fight for the rights (with force if necessary) of those who don't enjoy those privilidges through fear of fatal consequences.

That is why my husband (who turned down a know investment banking job to enlist) joined. He and I believe that we as a family can make a difference to the lives of vulnerable people, and this is the best way we can do it. He is willing to risk his life for that, he is willing to carry the burden of having to be the man that gives the orders that ultimately kills someone's father, husband and son, I am willing to risk being widowed and my children growing up without a father.

Anyone who takes opinions from Facebook has highly questionable judgement. It bears no resemblance to real life, its a virtual world packed with personal agendas and self delusion. So take a for that alone.

I'm ex military. I joined because I wanted a career, pension and the chance to travel. I've had all these things and been to a lot of dangerous as well as fascinating places. I'm not a hero and I don't believe I know any. What I do know is hard working focused people who are constantly let down by the government they serve. Help for Heros and the like I find deeply embarrassing. Not just because of the rhetoric they use but because we have to rely on charity to support veterans after they have served their county's foreign and security policies. The young lads who have lost limbs and are now charity cases is so depressing. I think the government should be ashamed.

Making them 'heroes' is palming the responsibility off on the public and charity. It's shifting the responsibility from where it really lies.

Ego. I didn't say they remained neutral - if you read my post properly I specifically said that most of the other neutral countries were invaded.

I also addressed the visit to the German Legation upthread, where I detailed the other assistance the Irish authorities gave to the Allies (including intelligence and air passage). Perhaps you missed that post.

a country which tries to do the right thing - you mean like [http://photogallery.bureauofmilitaryhistory.ie/thumbnails.php?album=44 this]? Warning - graphic photograph of the remains of two brothers arrested by Crown forces in Galway in November 1920, beaten, tied behind a lorry and forced to run behind, then dragged behind until their flesh was hanging off, then shot, their bodies mutilated then set alight and dumped in a bog pool.

And you're criticising the Irish for not wanting to fight alongside a country that allowed and encouraged that sort of thing - when it occurred within living memory? Not to mention the reprisals against civilian populations all over Ireland in 1920/21 - burnings, shootings, the whole lot. No official sanction for any of this.

Yep. 'Doing the right thing'.

Link fail

I've been an army wife for 6 years (and a child of a senior officer before that) and j honestly don't know anyone who hates help for heroes, quite on the contrary, every service person I know vehemently supports it!

I had to laugh a hollow mirthless laugh at the idea that this (or any country's) motivation for engagement in conflicts is a desire to to the right thing

That may well be the rations for individual service people but if you think that's how foreign policy is decided then ha ha bloody ha

I never once said I think that's how foreign policy is decided?

I'm from a senior military background, I know an awful lot about the decision process behind going to war .

It always amuses me how civilians with no military/government involvement profess to know the ins and outs of the motivations behind wars

WheresPolly I know a lot of service people who don't really like help for heroes. I think there's probably a whole range of opinions on the subject.

That's part of the problem too, people assume everyone in the forces has the same opinion. Definitely not! I can honestly say your opinion when you're sat on a sandbag in some hot and sandy place is very different than when you're in cozy blighty.

I personally don't mind if you don't think much of the Armed Forces, they're a selection of people from across the board - some good, some bad, some idiots, some decent, some you wouldn't spit on if they were on fire.

Exactly the same as the Police, NHS Staff, Fire Service, Coast Guard, RNLI, Bus Drivers, Teachers etc......

I don't hold with "Hero" status for any of these groups by default - if you do something "Heroic" then fair enough, but the job in itself is just that - a job that someone joined with a rough idea of what was involved.

If you don't like any of these jobs, fair enough.

But if you walk around spouting it out loud I reserve the right to think you're a prick and treat you accordingly.

Oh, I see - you are not actually interested in addressing any of the points I made which explained the difficulties around Ireland participating in WW2.

You just want to say 'Bad Irish! How dare you not do as the British do! Ungrateful former colonies, eh? They benefit from being right beside us - why can't they just do what we want them to do! Tsk tsk'.

If you actually reflected on what the British war on the Irish civilian population meant in 1920-21, you wouldn't be so outraged that 20 years later there wasn't much appetite for joining alongside the British. The US didn't enter the war until they were directly attacked. Why aren't you berating the Americans for not being in from the start? Not their problem either in 1939-40-41.

As for Isis, it's part of a continuum that has its roots in a noxious blend of neo-Islamism and reactions to western neo-imperialism. Ireland probably won't get involved, no. We are a neutral nation, a very small nation, and there is a great opinion in Ireland that small nations simply get battered if they get involved in the quarrels of big nations. Besides, the way warfare has advanced, the Irish Army is not equipped for bombing missions and the like. Better that the Irish focus on serving the international community in a way they can make a meaningful and worthwhile contribution - as peacekeepers in UN mandated missions.

But - don't let me stop you. If you're not with us, you're against us, eh? You sound like someone...now who was it...

The only things on FB I've ever seen about giving military personnel god like status is a from a soldier who is an entitled prick.

He was ranting the other day because the gov won't pay for his pedigree GSD to be castrated, if he was on benefits they would, but because he chose to risk his life for his fellow country-men he has to pay for his own dog's vet fees.

Mind you he was an entitled prick before he joined the army, so I don't blame the army, I do wonder why they don't have some kind of social media policy that prevents their officers from posting anti semantic, racist, poor bashing bile all over FB, it does their cause no favours.

On the whole I support service men and women, but tbh, the way I see this particular military person and his friends speak about "civvies" not to mention immigrants, refugees, the poor, the disabled and women does make me think there are more twats in the army than there are decent folk.

It always amuses me how civilians with no military/government involvement profess to know the ins and outs of the motivations behind wars

Why are you amused?

You don't need to be from a military background to have studied the origins of the World Wars.

Learning I think you are right. Perhaps the ones that don't support are just less vocal when they're in service. I got the impression on this thread though that hardly any support H4H when an awful lot (and a lot of civilians) do.

Anemones no you don't, but not every piece of information/discussion is made publically available, so virtually no civilian (I include myself in that) is in possession of the full facts.

I've been an army wife for 6 years (and a child of a senior officer before that) and j honestly don't know anyone who hates help for heroes, quite on the contrary, every service person I know vehemently supports it!

I sincerely doubt that. I'm a member of a group of Forces wives and girlfriends country wide, we're having a fundraising event in the very near future. Over 3/4 of us said we would not support it if the money went to H4H. You need to do some research to see just how much money they are sitting on and how much they pay their top dogs. The criteria for who they help was questionable, although they have changed that recently.

I've got a RAF DH, an Army DS and a Navy BIL I don't know anyone who supports H4H.

Doubt away. I am also a member of various forces wives group, I run fundraisers, charity balls and other social events.

I've seen the H4H accounts, I have a background in legal/finance and let me assure you they are not even in the same league as those of cancer research etc.

I am not saying you are wrong. I don't know who you socialise with across the military, it may well be different depending on whether its officers/soldiers you speak to, I freely admit I am probably out of touch with the opinions of NCOs and their families.

I do see your point actually and I suppose you'd be unlikely to tell your boss's wife you didn't support the charity she was fundraising for!

My husband is in the RN so I have lived with the military life for over 17 years.

I have never seen any military personnel refer to, or believe, themselves to be heroes, I agree that it is mainly the media who 'force' this name upon them. I know people who I would class as heroes, but conversely I have met people I wouldn't trust with a goldfish.

I have lived in military accommodation and the majority of it is crap. I lived in 3 different military flats/houses before we bought our own house and every single one had a massive problem with damp, which was never fixed, we just got told to leave our windows open and not dry clothes indoors, perfect advice in the winter! The upkeep is terrible, no one looks after them as they know they won't be in them for long enough to make it worth their while.

Military wages are no way in line with civilian wages, when my husband goes away for 6 months at a time he gets about £400 a month extra, this is a fairly high example as he is a Warrant Officer and has been in for 20 years. (Sea pay goes up in correlation with how long overall you have spent at sea).
If he was to work an equivalent civilian job, 7 days a week, unsociable hours, often having 2 hours sleep in 24 hours, in the living conditions they have, he would be earning a lot more overtime than that!

And I know a lot of people who don't support Help for Heroes, I know someone who worked for them and she always tells anyone she can to support The British Legion instead.

Here goes.... Help for heros is a catchy slogan and I have no problem with heros being linked to armed forces personnel. It's a disgrace that our military don't have better support. I'm here in the US and veterans get priority when applying for civilian government jobs and in the private sector they are treated as a minority group whose rights are protected. As they move around a lot veterans get discounted mortgages with no surcharges for having a deposit as little as 3%. The colleges that the children of service personnel apply to often give preferrential treatment to these guys as they know the kids have been moved a lot.

Go into dunkin donuts and buy a coffee here as someone in service and it's often free because it's their way of saying thank you.

My brother is in the Army these days and was previously in the Marines. He works on some high risk jobs and his pay is absolutly pitiful. I am disgusted that the pension is so poor for someone who will have served for 20 years.

During those years my brother has had some major injuries, most severe was when he broke his back. I got a call from him on my way to work as he couldn't get hold of anyone else in the family. He was going to have to wait a week to be airlifted back to the UK. With permission from the military my family arranged for him to be airlifted at our expense. My employer, an American jnvestment bank, offered to cover the cost in full when they heard about the long wait to get back to the UK.

At Selly Oak the care was excellent but there was zero safeguarding of the injured servicemen. There was an incident of Muslim youths entering the ward and beating up injured service personnel while my brother was there. The two injured servicemen who knocked them out with equipment were charged with assult. Quite frankly those Muslim youths were lucky to have left that ward alive.

So while I don't think 'hero' is the best word to describe my thoughts of service personnel, it makes for a catchy slogan that helps them with fundraising so I accept it and do what I can to support their cause and also other charities that help all veterans no matter of their status.

Why on earth would that amuse you, wherespolly? How odd.

Re: Ireland, I don't think it is sensible to expect a country that has a population less than half the size of greater London to have a significant military presence abroad.

However, I also think that it should be recognised that there is a healthy dose of pragmatism involved in the ideal of Irish neutrality.

Also re: pragmatism, it is very easy to blame war on oil. However oil reserves are disproportionately placed in the world's trouble spots and access is often controlled by not very nice people. I don't see a concurrent demand for more local wind farms and fracking in the UK.