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AIBU?

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Jehovah's Witnesses trying to convert vulnerable people

102 replies

nobodyknowsimhere · 13/10/2015 21:07

First AIBU and I'm aware I've potentially chosen a hot topic, so I'm bracing myself.....

I work in a residential project for vulnerable women and their children. We get a lot of donations from local individuals and groups, some of them religious, some not. Occasionally they come with cards saying 'happy Easter/Christmas whatever from x congregation'. I'm not a fan of organised religion or religious charities but whatever, it has no impact on the women and children concerned so it doesn't bother me.

What did bother me, though, was when the Jehovah's Witnesses rocked up the other day wanting to leave copies of the Watch Tower in our foyer for people to pick up. My colleague was the one who saw them and didn't realise they were leaving religious tracts, which they described as 'magazines'. We're we being unreasonable to chuck the, straight in the bin once I showed up and explained what they were, and would I be unreasonable to call them up and ask them not to come again?

OP posts:
saucony · 14/10/2015 11:27

BeautyQueen Most cancer treatment for children will result in multiple blood transfusions.

BeautyQueenFromMars · 14/10/2015 12:10

saucony Ah, I didn't realise that (obviously!). Thank you for pointing that out. In that case, I retract the first part of my statement, with apologies.

LilaTheTiger · 14/10/2015 12:56

If you leave without ever having been baptized into the religion, then they can all talk to you

If you are pressured into being baptised at 14, due to not being allowed 'worldly' friends no matter what, and not being allowed 'truth' friends if you are not baptised, then decide it is all nonsense at 17 and try to leave you're a bit screwed though aren't you?

And regarding the education denial - in my congregation any young person who didn't plan on being a part time cleaner/window cleaner to spend the rest of the time 'pioneering' was considered very suspect. So why did you need education? Most of the girls were married by 22 anyway.

And those of you with the 'they're so nice when they call' - well they would be, wouldn't they?

LilaTheTiger · 14/10/2015 12:58

'Pioneering' is door knocking 60 or 90 hours a month btw. Depending on level. So all the time they're chatting nonsense and giving you leaflets is logged carefully.

konceptual99 · 14/10/2015 13:40

Sorry for the very long opening post but hopefully it will be helpful!

I would like to qualify some of the comments on this thread. I was raised as a Jehovah's Witness and have been a baptised, active member for almost 30 years. I currently attend meetings but have been mentally out of the religion for some time now. I no longer believe the failed predictions and interpretation of the Bible as presented by Jehovah's Witnesses.

Firstly - to address the concern of the OP. It's your choice whether you think the Watchtower and Awake! magazines are appropriate for the people under your care. TBH, they are pretty tame nowadays, in terms of message, especially the Awake! magazine which is very general interest.

The people leaving the magazines are simply trying to find all avenues to reach people. They are not specifically targeting individuals but would be more than happy to speak to anyone, staff or resident, that might wish to speak to them.

Recent years have seen initiatives to find more people other than those simply behind doors in residential streets hence they have looked at care homes, shops, businesses, fuel stations and, most recently, the mobile trolleys that grace many a town centre these days. Your residence is simply another opportunity.

They will believe that their message of "the good news of Christ's Kingdom" will have relevance to the people at the residence and will expect that, at the very least, the hope presented by a future paradise earth full of perfect people is something that anyone would want to look forward to.

They have zero training in dealing with any sort of vulnerable person whether it be those with mental health care issues, dependencies issues or those in vulnerable social situations.

Whilst not targeting individuals or specific segments of society, there is the potential for a perfect storm of misguided opportunity seeking with a vulnerable person finding a group that seems loving, honest, caring and inclusive (relatively speaking) along with a message that offers a panacea that goes ways beyond the immediate practical help that one might need.

Having said you will probably find that the people that visit will be happy just to leave magazines and go on their way, especially if access to residents is not straight-forward.

Witnesses count the time spent and "placements" of magazines. It's a major part of how a Witness' commitment and spirituality is measured so making those numbers look good at the end of the month is critical.

"Pioneers" are Witnesses who have made a special commitment to spend a certain amount of time proselytising or "witnessing". You can commit to 30 hours a month on a casual basis or 70 hours on a month by month basis.

On a day to day basis most Witnesses are nice people and their religious views are not a major issue.

What happens, however, is that there will be a point where the religious views clash with what would be typical and normal behaviour for most other people.

konceptual99 · 14/10/2015 13:49

So..

Shunning...

If a baptised member does something seriously wrong such as (but not limited to):

  • sex outside of marriage
  • smoking
  • apostasy (which can include simply not believing it anymore)
  • "brazen conduct" - catch all for anything else

then they will face an internal disciplinary process. This "judicial committee" may result in them being "disfellowshipped". This means that no other witness can acknowledge them. They must be shunned. This includes by family members however there are dispensations for a DF'ed person living in the same house as their family and for critical family matters for those outside of the family home (e.g. death in the family).

Repeated non-shunning of a DF'ed person counts as "brazen conduct".

Someone who formally rejects the faith and renounces their membership by letter is considered to have "disassociated" themselves. They are to be shunned the same as a DF'ed person.

There are some special cases like joining the military or going to another church that count as "disassociated by their actions". This prevents legal problems such as being accused of official sanctions for members fulfilling national obligations.

You can become "inactive" which means you stop going. This will result in most of your old friends stopping contact with you. Some, including family, may shun you. It does allow for whatever relationships family wish to have with you to continue.

If you do become inactive then you better not start celebrating Christmas or birthdays, speaking against the beliefs or otherwise as you risk being disfellowshipped in absentia and then properly shunned.

This is why it is so difficult to leave. They say everyone has a free choice but it WILL have consequences which will shatter the social fabric that you might have had from childhood. Hence why I cannot just say I don't believe it any more.

This is one of the most evil aspects of the religion. It's glossed over and squirmed around at an official level but you better believe it. They are subtly encouraging young people (12, 13 upwards) to commit to baptism - once baptised you are subject to the discipline of the congregation which means possible shunning if you do something later on in life that does not meet with the accepted standards.

If you and your family join Jehovah's Witnesses then this scenario is a real possibility.

konceptual99 · 14/10/2015 13:50

Education...

Higher (university) level education is strongly discouraged. Getting a practical qualification at 6th form/college level is fine (e.g. in a trade or apprenticeship). The aim is to keep young people away from critical thinking and get them "pioneering" in their young years.

If a father is an "elder" in the congregation he can lose that role if his children attend university. Going to university is not something that you can be kicked out for but make no mistake - it is discouraged and those that do attend put under intense scrutiny about why they want to get a degree when the world is on it's way out.

konceptual99 · 14/10/2015 13:52

Health Care...

The only issue for Witnesses is blood transfusions. They have a completely illogical take on it now which is contradictory in so many ways. Having a blood transfusion is not a "disfellowshipping" offence but if you are not repentant then it considered "disassociation by your actions". Net result - shunning.

Again, it's spun very differently in public but that is exactly what the real situation is and any Witness that says otherwise is a liar or has not been able to see the secret direction to the Elders on this subject.

konceptual99 · 14/10/2015 13:56

Anyway - sorry for the tomes but hopefully that does explain some of the other comments in more detail and give the OP more information about why this religion does need to be approached with caution.

For more details go to jwfacts.com. It deals with lots of aspects of the religion that many people who are Witnesses don't know. Absolutely brilliant resource for anyone who wants to know the truth about JWs.

RJnomaaaaaargh · 14/10/2015 13:58

What's the scripture that was endlessly quoted at me?

To the making of books there is no end and study is tiring to the body?

Not verbatim but close. The general view is anything which distracts you from your primary responsibility - worshipping God and proselytising - is wrong and should not be encouraged.

The poster up there who said blood transfusions are not a matter for disfellowshipping is completely wrong.

RJnomaaaaaargh · 14/10/2015 14:02

Sorry koncept I realise you are correct - some in willingly accepting a transfusion wouldn't be disfellowshipped they would be announced as disassociated. I believe it's to cover legal difficulties in some countries - probably yet another arse covering exercise - so that the decision is deemed to be the individuals legally but in practice the outcome is the same.

konceptual99 · 14/10/2015 14:10

RJ - it's not even for the legal side of things. It's a shameless obfuscation so JW media representatives can pronounce that no Jehovah's Witness will be disfellowshipped for accepting a transfusion.

Interestingly enough they have never formally announced it to the entire membership through the Watchtower magazine or other formal route such as a letter.

It was a change brought in a few years ago and presented solely to the elders. It is part of the current secret elders manual (freely available on the web). There are still many rank and file members who think it is a DF offence.

The current form that is sent to the local HQ (Bethel) clearly shows this as it mentions acceptance of blood as a dissociation action. See drive.google.com/file/d/0B2fYNzAbUpqFaTNfWHl4QWVmY28/view?pli=1

Either way it's a moot point - you will be shunned.

SparklyTinselTits · 14/10/2015 14:13

I don't think YABU. Not just because they were JW - if it was me, I wouldn't be happy with any religion just dropping their literature off and then chasing up "how you are getting on with it".
Like other posters have said, it's fine for an adult to believe what they want to believe, and join a religion of their own accord, without being bombarded with religious material that might sway the, one way or the other.
I have JW that knock round every so often, I politely decline their offer of a copy of The Watchtower. I don't agree with their ideologies at all. For example, my aunt was a nurse in a big city hospital, and one day a JW family (mum, dad and 3 children) were all admitted after a pretty nasty car accident. The mother and her 3 year old daughter were badly hurt, and the little girl needed a blood transfusion. Surprise surprise, the father wasn't having any of it, and my poor aunt had to sit with this little girl until she bled to death Sad I can't see how that can be right in the eyes of any God.

SparklyTinselTits · 14/10/2015 14:14

*Should probably add that was back in the mid-80's.

Doublebubblebubble · 14/10/2015 14:20

If jw come to my door I make sure to express my atheism and I also make sure not to take anything from them those watch tower "magazines" are left under the proviso that they can come back. Like a betterware/avon catalogue.

BeautyQueenFromMars · 14/10/2015 14:23

If you are pressured into being baptised at 14, due to not being allowed 'worldly' friends no matter what, and not being allowed 'truth' friends if you are not baptised, then decide it is all nonsense at 17 and try to leave you're a bit screwed though aren't you?

Yes, I was you absolutely are.

I'm assuming the education comment wasn't aimed at me as I didn't mention education at all, but I will say that I was always under the distinct impression that further education was heavily frowned upon/actively discouraged. And yes, 'pioneering' was the only goal that was put forward as being worth considering.

JoySzasz · 14/10/2015 14:36

I have many very close family members who are Witnesses. I have never been.
All that has been spoken of to day (in warning) needs to be taken on board.

They are one of the most dangerous cults , dressed up as one of the most endearing.

There is masses of 'truth' on the internet that backs up dis-fellowshipped members experiences.

Learning about the early days is an education in itself.

The magazines can't harm you... but as is commonly quoted: 'Watch out for the watchtower'

Lurkedforever1 · 14/10/2015 15:09

sparkly I'm sure even in the 80's that could be over ruled. Similar-ish story but another parent who was present and disgusted the child could have died waiting for ss to over rule them. I've also heard people who worked in casualty years ago say if the parents refused the treatment they could and would be completely ignored even if there was no ss present to give permission.

Ouriana · 14/10/2015 16:12

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

RJnomaaaaaargh · 14/10/2015 16:21

Ouriana what age are you?

The reason I ask is my mum keeps trying to tell me how it's better now and you can go to university and there was a new watchtower article revealing new truths which said this and that.
Uni was never a df offence but it was actively discouraged as vanity. The real reason though is that uni encourages and develops critical analysing, research and breadth of reading which all risk actively exposing the sham it is.

It's a great teaching isn't it, anything which isn't from us (ie governing body) is satanic and demonic and not to be trusted to just read our sanctioned literature and research it, coupled with the fact every time something is revealed to be untrue (the 1914 generation) it's the truth being slowly revealed and made clearer and a doctrinal clarificTion to be celebrated. Not something they got wrong.

But hey I guess that's apostasy I've just posted...Confused

konceptual99 · 14/10/2015 16:22

Hi Ouriana,

When was this? There was a period a while back when there was a WT that was a bit more vague about higher education and people did take that as tacit acceptance however in recent years the organisation has reiterated earlier strong anti-higher education rhetoric.

In terms of sanctions against elders this is also a more recent introduction. There was a letter to the elders in 2012 specifically regarding this. Please take a look at the detail at www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/higher-education-university.php and you will see the latest direction.

I don't know if you still attend but the anti-higher education stance is stronger then ever right now and is repeated regularly from the top down.

Ouriana · 14/10/2015 16:29

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

RJnomaaaaaargh · 14/10/2015 16:32

God that's depressing koncept.

Varya · 14/10/2015 16:33

Its what the JWs do, but agree some seem lovely.

konceptual99 · 14/10/2015 16:35

Yup - pioneering during uni and/or attending close to home so you're not in student accommodation does reduce some of the heat. The type of course, alleged future goals and, to some extent, the standing of the father can all have an effect as well.

There is no two ways about it though - wanting to go to uni nowadays is frowned on big time.

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