To think this is racist?

[CrohnicallyAspie]

At work today, a new member of staff asked who X was. Someone else said 'she works with Y, in that office, black curly hair...'

New member of staff still didn't know so I pointed out 'she's black' (she's the only black member of staff!)

Is it racist to be skirting round describing her as black, as the other staff did?

I have been watching my son play rugby and when asked which one was mine, a friend said "he's in the red jersey over there" pointing as a bunch of then 7 years olds in red jerseys (team kit).

I sniggered as said - "Thats not really helpful is it. He's the one who looks Central Asian"

Which in fact wasn;t any more helpful as it dawned on me that (from their expression) they had no idea what someone Central Asian looked like so I added..."you know vaguely chinese but not quite"

So many people use race as a description when it's totally irrelevant that I sometimes appreciate the effort not to use it even when it is a bit contrived!

"We have new neighbours. They're black. Oh they're sooo nice"

I wouldn't say 'she's black', I don't think. It's not that it's rude to say someone's black if they are, or rude not to say they are - but little things like this, cutting in to make it very very clear who someone is on the assumption that colour is an easy and obvious way to determine who someone is, are the kinds of thing which continue to emphasize that race is a key identifier.

I don't think it's overly bad or serious, and I don't think it's overtly racist, but because of what underpins it, I personally would try not to.

I wouldn't use someone's race to describe them unless there was no other way. Usually I'd describe clothing, height, hair, etc. I wouldn't think to describe a white colleague as 'the white one' - and tbh that would be partly because the majority of my colleagues are white! But I would be concerned that someone may think I was reducing them down to their skin colour.

In my first job, I described a colleague as 'the woman in the wheelchair', and she did take offense and never warmed to me after she found out. And I can understand it because there were several other ways I could have described her.

You can't know if that would upset someone or not until it happens, and I'd rather not cause offence if it can be avoided.

I think it is ok.

The black girl
The guy with ginger hair
The really tall man

All ok.

I personally think its OK too whois (depending on the context) but OP is asking if its racist to say "the tall man in the white shirt" when the man is also black. Because by not mentioning her colour, she must in her head had noticed it and it bothered her so she didn't mention it or something like that !

Not quite kew as I said, this woman was the only black member of staff who works there. The new member of staff clearly didn't have a clue who works with who (seeing as she's new I guess it is quite hard to get that sort of thing straight in your head) so I thought it would be far more helpful to point out a physical characteristic that sets her apart from the rest of the staff.

Likewise it would be easier to point out that X (gender neutral name) is the only man on the staff rather than try things like 'usually wears a tie, works in this office, short hair'.

In my uncle's office, they couldn't offer someone a black or white coffee, it had to be a coffee with or without milk.

Not racist if it's the easy way of defining which of a number of people you mean.

Slightly o/t but there was a time in my office (in the good old days before open plan) when two women started sharing a room; one was black and her surname was White and the other was white and her surname was Black. It's a first-name terms office so the comic potential didn't occur to them until the second day when somebody walked in and said Sorry, which of you is Black? and they said simultaneously I am.

Bath. . Now that evidence proves that, political correctness is getting beyond a joke.Sorry but it is.. The world really has cracked its face. You petrified to speak. .

You miss my point OP. It might be more helpful but choosing not to reference her race is not racist. You are over thinking it. I can choose not to describe someone as fat if it makes me feel slightly awkward.

Some people are unnecessarily awkward when use skin colour to describe people - it doesn't make them racist

My DH is black, a lot of my friends and family are black . . . I can tell you that I don't know a single black person who would have a problem being described as black.

It certainly can be over thought. Years ago I worked with a group of people, included several young girls. and an slightly older very good looking man joined the team, he also happened to be black, everyone else was white. Now I was the only English person in this office no one had an issue with referring to me as 'the English one' but one one would describe him as black, went around using everything else possible.

I also remember one Monday I was talking about a film id been to see, I described it was 'a black comedy', because it was, but my comment caused a collective intake a breath from the younger crowd and they all looked shiftedly at each other. He on the other hand started laughing at their reaction.

But why would describing someone as fat make you feel awkward? Because it's a not very nice thing to say? Whereas describing somebody as blonde or wearing glasses is less awkward because it's more neutral.

Likewise, if you are avoiding calling somebody black because it makes you feel awkward, you're implying it's not a nice thing to say. If you use it to describe somebody when it's relevant, you're implying it's neutral.

Does that make sense now?

I'd describe someone as white in that situation if everyone else wasn't and it was the most distinct characteristic.

Maybe they've worked in an office before where they have to call their coffee with or without milk. That might make them feel awkward about using "black"

Choosing to describe someone without using their colour might be unnecessarily awkward but calling them racist is over thinking it just as ridiculously as they are in over thinking how to describe someone black.

Racism is a real problem for some people in day to day life and using it frivolously in situatios like this trivialises the real and harmful effects of racism on so many people.

The risk is that you may wrongly identify ethnic origin. That could be offensive.

So, for example - ex-boyfriend had a black father, white mother and was from a Latin American country. Is he black, or Latino? A friend is of Caribbean origin but can look Asian or Native American. How would you describe her? Co-worker's husband is from Kenya, but is of Indian decent. Is he Kenyan, or Indian?

I know a lot of dual / mixed heritage people and they find it frustrating to be wrongly labelled.

I can't be bothered with people who say 'oh - I don't see colour'. That is racist and probably bullshit as you are denying people part of their identity and lived experiences as people of colour, but on the flip side, I'm not sure I would use someone's skin colour as a descriptor unless I was certain of how they themselves identified their ethnicity or race.

Yeah, when you describe everything but their skin color it's almost like saying "I have to over look your excess melanin to see you as an equal". Same goes with being "color blind".

Unless I know the person's race, I just say "The dark dude/lady over there wearing whatever" Gets around the problem nicely and no one has objected be being called that.

I married a dark guy and he is a mix of a few different things. He never gets upset when people mislabel him, he quite likes telling people his heritage and mislabeling him is a good segue into that.

He does mercilessly take the piss start ribbing his coworkers when they avoid describing his ethnicity. He came up once while his coworkers were fumbling around and loudly said "The brown guy! DH is the brown guy!" or he'll call himself the "token minority so they can say they're diverse".

Anyway, describing skin color isn't racist.

OK, so it's not racist but I stand by what I said earlier, that by avoiding saying it you're actually making it into a bigger deal.

I think I was conflating it with what tootsie said- 'I don't see colour'- you're either pretending you don't see it or you think it would be impolite to mention it.

For what it's worth, the woman is not mixed race, she identifies as black, she is like senpai's DH and if she had heard the coworkers she would probably have interjected with 'I'm black!' instead of me!

In my first job, I described a colleague as 'the woman in the wheelchair', and she did take offense and never warmed to me after she found out. And I can understand it because there were several other ways I could have described her

As someone in a wheelchair I wouldn't be offended by that.

It is a fact. I am in a wheelchair.

Surely it is all to do with context. If it was a way of describing me to someone then I don't see the issue.

It becomes an issue if it is used as a 'put down'

The risk is that you may wrongly identify ethnic origin

This is a good point - my DS is often referred to as "Chinese" which, I can't help it, irritates the shit out of me. He doesn't look Chinese at all. He looks Central Asian or possibly mixed race Anglo/Asian but he really doesn't look Chinese. Put him in a room of Chinese people and he would stand out very obviously. Bizarrely he looks very like my nephews fiancee who is Chinese but who says that no-one in China believes she is!

Of course I smile nicely and correct them because it's not their fault they can't tell the difference but in effect what they are saying is "He looks Chinese because all these Central/East Asians look the same to me".

I accept that no-one is being knowingly racist still doesn't make it less irritating. I'm sure Canadians hate being called American too.

by avoiding saying it you're actually making it into a bigger deal to be fair only if everyone around you thinks its a bigger deal! I agree with you that a simple "the tall black woman over there" would generally be easiest all round. There's no need to turn to dropping of "black" into a big deal though.

My problem is that i don't know the correct term, that is not offensive to use, I don't want to be offensive,or upset anyone -

Also - I would happily say the Indian lady, or the Welsh lady, Blonde, brunette, tall, short, (but not fat lady or skinny lady or the lesbian lady)

""He looks Chinese because all these Central/East Asians look the same to me"."

Isnt it more "he look Chinese because he has Chinese features?"

But they aren't "chinese" features. He has epicanthal folds along with half the planet! That doesn't make them chinese!

Additionally he has darker skin and lighter hair and is taller and more muscular than the archetypal chinese person. He looks like a tall Thai person.

I have less problem with people mistaking him for a Thai as he does look Thai.

Like I said I smile nicely and say "central asian" because I do get that people can't tell the differnce. Still irritates me though.

My dd is generally assumed to be of Asian origin, and specifically Indian. While there is a very small amount of Indian origin, her heritage is far more mixed than that, and the small amount of Indian ancestry wouldn't have resulted in her appearance alone. But because her actual mix up is impossible to guess unless I gave a detailed family tree, and would be a bloody big mouthful, describing her as having Indian or Asian heritage or appearance isn't offensive even though its incorrect. And confuses people because looking at both parents she's technically Caucasian.

What does piss me off is calling her Indian or Asian when I'm clearly white british, and colour aside we look very alike. With me it's obvious she at most is mixed race even allowing for the fact assuming an Asian/Indian father is a reasonable mistake to make.

Or people saying she doesn't look much like me. When colour aside we are extremely similar. Or attributing things to what they believe her origins are. I'm tall, small build and skinny. Dds identical physiche (even do the same sports) must of course be down to the fact 'a lot of AsIan/ Indian people are smaller framed'. And of course the fact with a 6' mother being 'very tall for an Asian/ Indian' is apparently very unusual. I'm just waiting for someone to attribute her academic ability and interest in stem subjects is down to 'lots of Asians do well at medical school'.

It's as though every other aspect of her is shoved to the back behind the heading of 'brown'. By the very same people who would avoid describing her as dark or dark/ brown skinned incase it's offensive.

I'm not getting the Chinese label either. Surely if you aren't knowledgeable about where exactly in Asia someones appearance originates from, if you wanted to avoid offence you'd just stick with 'Asian' instead of trying to specify the exact country when clearly its not a subject you are knowledgeable about.

"...I pointed out 'she's black' (she's the only black member of staff!)"

I see no problem with that. A unique attribute easily understood by anyone.

So OP, no it is not racist at all. The other members of staff are being rather silly .