To want to train as a doctor?

[Duggee]

It's always interested me and something I really want to do! Is it crazy to think of doing it with children in tow? I wouldnt want to start for a few more years, but would starting in my mid thirties be crazy?

I should imagine it will be bloody difficult and only you know if you will be able to manage it with your other commitments but if it is your dream and you are determined then go for it.
I wouldn't have the confidence I could do it myself but it's not impossible. Good luck.

At this current time I would say you are absolutley hopping mad.
Thats without the hard work, the effect on family life, the sheer amount of theory and practical work, the shifts, the unpaid overtime.
No no no no. NO.

Duggee, what is it about it that appeals to you? There may be other jobs that require less training and that you would still find enjoyable and satisfying.

I'm currently half way along the m62 on the way to finish off my 8th house move in the 11 years I've been a junior doctor. I've finally, in my mid 30s, finished my training. I've moved from Wales to the midlands to Yorkshire to the north west chasing the career I want. I have had to study for 5 postgrad exams in my own time. I work on average a 48 hour week but, for example between the 21st and 30th September I worked 6 12 hour shifts (finishing at least an hour late two or 3 times), came in for a compulsory study at from 10til 6 on one of my off days and was in from half 7 til about 3 on another off day in order to provide induction for new starters.

I've never been in the position to buy a house, I'm not married and don't have kids. I'm looking at the second year in a row living away from my partner.

I absolutely bloody love my job. There is nothing else I would rather do. I am still excited about going in every day, I would still come to work if I won the lottery (though probably part time with decent chunks of unpaid leave!!)
I e gone into a field where the long hours and night shifts won't stop when I'm a consultant (24 hour shifts where I will most likely be resident rather than on the end of the phone from home) but that is my choice, there are plenty of less brutal consultant jobs. However, there is no way I would put myself through these past 11 years if I was starting in my mid 30s with small kids.

Thank you for your comments. I know it will be really hard. I will swap places with my husband I'm terms of work. He will work during school hours doing something he loves (gardening) and i would so something I love.

It appeals because I'm fascinated by medicine, hospitals and anything related. I read medical research for fun, and read around it using text books, the Internet when I come across something I don't understand. Nursing would appeal to me, but not on the same level as being a doctor would. I don't think nurses get to use in depth knowledge in the same way a doctor would.
The only thing that would really put me off is if I had to uproot my family every year. I'm in commuting distance of London, so was hoping I wouldn't have to (I have no idea if this is possible).

I'm supposed to hear so many negative posts! I think I can handle the many hours, in fact I think I would love it!

When you will have time for your DC?

Doh!
When will you have time for your DC?

That's why I want to wait another few years, so they are all at school, and by the time I am working many hours they will be teenagers. I presume I will have at least a few hours per week? Their dad will become their main carer.

I'm also looking into the physicians associate a pp suggested. I've never heard of them before but that does look much more family friendly.

I think I can handle the many hours, in fact I think I would love it!

This sounds a bit naive. Most days you are supposed to finish at 530 but you rarely leave before 7pm, and you're not paid for those extra hours. If you've got a long commute home you'll hardly see your kids/husband and when you do you'll feel mentally and physically exhausted. "Loving" working those hours is basically impossible. It is relentless.

The NHS is stretched to the absolute limit and you'll be on your feet all day making decisions we above your experience level but since there's often no one else you just have to do what you hope is best. Have you read any of the accounts of what being a junior doctor is like? I absolutely would not recommend it unless you're planning on doing what most of my medical school friends are doing-emigrating.

Have you thought about doing biomedical science and/or working in research in a specific area that interests you?

I'm a doctor. A hospital consultant now, for about 5 years.

If any of my children wanted to do medicine I would be (quietly) devastated. As would my DH, also a hospital consultant. If they went ahead anyway, I'd suggest they prepare for a move to Canada/Aus/NZ from the outset.

You need to think carefully OP.

You'll have 4-6 years of a uni degree with ever shortening holidays as the course progresses. 2 years of pre-registration working in random specialties, then 5-9 years training to be a consultant (bit less if you want to be a GP). All through the training you work like a dog, while being expected to prepare for and pass postgrad exams in your own, "spare" time, i.e. The tiny bit of yourself you have left over for your husband and kids will be given up for exam prep -and these are exams like you've never known, believe me. And all of this assumes you don't go part time or have ANY set backs along the way.

Seriously, signing up to medicine is like joining the army in terms of how much control you'll ever have over your own life again.

There is a high incidence of suicide among doctors being investigated by the GMC. It's not because the job is soooooo great they can't bear to give it up, it's because they've given up sooooo much of themselves to be doctors they have no idea what is left of themselves if they are struck off too. And as far as the GMC goes, every, EVERY doctor I know takes a "there but for the grace of..." attitude to it....i.e. Any day it could be you.

And if I haven't said enough yet, remember that health care professionals, along with teachers, are the political footballs of our time. Whatever you sign up to the day you start your course, it will be something different when you graduate, then something different while you train, something else when you become a consultant...etc etc etc. Can you live with the uncertainty?

Then there's the public. The great unknown. I've been assaulted. A few minor incidents. Once a serious beating. Sworn at regularly. Complaints from people who have been lovely to my face. Death threats. Someone telling me they knew where I lived and would burn my house down with my children in it while we slept. 95% of people are just fine but these ones break you just a little bit. And the things you hear about human beings and the things they do to each other (and themselves)...sheesh. I sometimes wish I could still see the world through my pre-medicine untainted eyes.

You think that you are prepared because you know it will be hard work. Seriously. Maybe you think I am jaded. One of those burnt out doctors who isn't coping. I'm really not. I look around and I'm one of the ones who sailed through!

Oh my word! What a thread! The number of doctors who have come on here and expressed their dissatisfaction and dillusionment with their jobs is horrendous.

I am a teacher, and I often read threads upon these boards from other teachers grumbling about workloads, but this just pales into insignificance when compared to what has been described here.

May I, for one, let you know that I appreciate immensely what you do.

OP, you do seem rather naiive in your desire to fulfil a wish, and possibly a bit selfish given the sacrifices the rest of your family will have to make for a decade or so.

It appeals because I'm fascinated by medicine, hospitals and anything related. I read medical research for fun, and read around it using text books, the Internet when I come across something I don't understand. Nursing would appeal to me, but not on the same level as being a doctor would. I don't think nurses get to use in depth knowledge in the same way a doctor would.

Have you actually been in a hospital environment e.g. work experience to get an idea of what it might be like? I think you need to look more into this.

I was very naive to a lot of the negatives that come with it:

• Having to write statements if a patient complains. Even if you only put in an IV line. It's stressful.
• Risk meetings where you feel your decisions are raked over the coals
• Patients with high expectations and the aggressive ones. I was 26 when a patient followed me into the doctor's office and blocked my way out. 27 when a patient pinched me hard to 'demonstrate' the pain he was in. Sworn at repeatedly.
• Paying GMC fees, indemnity fees, post-graduate exam membership fees, studying for the exams etc

Living in commuting distance of London doesn't mean you will work there - London is a very competitive deanery, a lot of the people who want to work there for training have already got the first part of the membership exams and publications under their belts.

My advice to anyone wanting to do medicine right now is, "Go for it, just don't work in the UK"

Also are you going to be able to survive on your DH's part time seasonal self employment earnings as a gardener.Children get more expensive as they get older...

sorry -another negative post I think before you work in medicine you see all the fascinating interesting bits and yes its a privilege to work as a doctor-you see an aspect of life that you wouldnt experience otherwise. But there are now hugely unrealistic expectations and you constantly worry about making mistakes or getting complaints. Its very difficult to switch off. I have been threatened and had to carry a panic alarm with me for several weeks at all times. I am often anxious and many holidays/ xmas times etc have been spoiled by worrying about patients .
Agree with all those who say that getting the degree is the easy bit - after that its exhausting . How can you know you you would love the hours -have you worked for 12 hours without a break dealing with emotionally difficult situations all the time knowing you havnt got everything done that you needed to.
The other thing I would say is that after all that dealing with teenagers is maybe even harder and certainly the most difficult time as a parent IMO

OP, I won't try to answer your question because I'm in a similar boat. To those who are posting such helpful advice, may I put another question to you. If one was prepared to leave the UK after qualifying, is the life of a junior doctor etc. actually easier anywhere else?

stoppingbywoods

YES YES YES!

Much better in Aus/NZ. Really. And you can even do your training there to avoid the worst of the UK, qualify as a consultant and then come back to the UK. But NONE of my friends who have done that wanted to return.

Australia and New Zealand treat their doctors much better.

Is your comment about posters with "helpful advice" sarcastic or not stopping? Genuine question not a criticism.

It was genuine purple Far better to know the truth upfront.

And thank you asper and purple for answering.

No problem stopping-it is sometimes tricky to figure the tone of the posts.

Medical school is great. I loved all the theory and the elective abroad was one of the best experiences of my life.

The job was so awful on some days I would boil the kettle so l could "accidentally" burn myself so I wouldn't have to go to work. The worst bit is seeing patients get substandard care because it is impossible to do the job in the time you have available with the skills you have at that stage of training. If you care about people it eats you up. I was getting great feedback about my performance-it wasn't that I wasn't good at it.

The practicalities of getting jobs are a nightmare. There is no consideration at all as to whether you have a house/husband/children/other commitments. Even if you get a job in the deanery you want you might still be allocated a year in a hospital two hours away.

My sincere advice would be don't do it. I left and have never once regretted it.

Another hospital based consultant here. My DH is also a hospital based consultant, who is working this weekend. He started work at 8am on Friday and will go off duty at 5pm tomorrow. A large chunk of those hours have been spent on the hospital floor, those which haven't have been interrupted by numerous phone calls.

Our kids hate it when we have to work weekends.

I could have written Aspergallus's post above.

Until recently, I never would've discouraged anyone from a career in medicine. Throughout my career, I have been heavily involved in teaching and training, and still am. I know how hard medical students have to work. I know the stresses and worries junior doctors face about their patients; they are often the medical staff that patients see most, so they're often closer to patients than consultants are. I know how hectic and busy a ward environment is, how easy it is to make a simple mistake that could cost your career, and cost someone their life. These are the responsibilities that face all junior doctors whilst they struggle to pass expensive exams, often at a time when they are considering relationship commitments, applying for mortgages, or caring for young children, or parents who are getting older.

And as PPs have said, patients are generally lovely, but the very small minority who aren't can have very long lasting consequences. I won't ever forget being trapped in a room by the drunk male patient (when I was 26), or the patient who threatened to stab my unborn baby (when I was 29).

Junior doctors cope with similar levels of stress, responsibility and abuse, day in, day out. And I have always tried to open the eyes of those I teach to this. But to be in the position where the government are now feeding the media with downright lies, especially with regard to how hard doctors don't work is demoralising, humiliating and unjust.

For the first time in my life, just last week, I advised that a relative should use his ability to study something else. It makes me angry that I felt compelled to say that.

And I would second what other people have said above. I got through university and professional exams before I had children. I cannot imagine trying to study, work and add to a CV (with audit/research/special interest session/management & leadership experience) whilst juggling family life. It is hard enough as it is, working long hours and keeping on top of CPD/appraisal. There are not enough hours in the day.

Do it, by all means. But go into it with your eyes open, especially to the fact that public confidence in and support for what we do is gradually being eroded away.

I know someone who did it in her late twenties - starting with no qualifications at all as a lone parent with 2 DC...she's in her second year as an actual doctor (I don't know all the terms, I assume she's still a junior doctor?)

All that hard work for a basic salary of around £28k.

OP, it is possible, but it will be really, REALLY hard. You will miss seeing your children for days at a time, you have to pay for your own courses and exams (someone at work has paid for a compulsorary course and exam and it has cost her £1k). That's not counting textbooks and the number of hours study in her own time either. Medicine/nursing and the like is a calling or vocation, but do look at the bigger picture before taking the leap. There's a reason that so many Drs are applying to work overseas.....

And if you become a doctor and complain about the pension cuts/ attack on your work life ethos/ attitude/ junior doctors pay people will tell you that you rake it in as a consultant so essentially you should put up and shut up.

Another one who couldn't imagine saying "don't do it" a few years ago, but I think daily about emigrating now.

I also agree with those who talk about the minority of patients who make your life hell.

I have had verbal abuse on countless occasions, and have feared for my safety more than once, including when I was pregnant.

I have seen some pretty horrific things at work too, and those experiences do stay with you.

I would say that the majority of my peers have either moved down under, are considering it, of are considering leaving medicine completely.

I am too, though I have no idea what I would do.

It is a pity because there are some aspects of the job that I love, but the whole system has become a political football for each successive government to tear apart.