To want to train as a doctor?

[Duggee]

It's always interested me and something I really want to do! Is it crazy to think of doing it with children in tow? I wouldnt want to start for a few more years, but would starting in my mid thirties be crazy?

[nocoolnamesleft]

Only do it if it is the only thing in the world you can possibly imagine doing, and without it your life will be an incomplete misery. Only do it if it is more important to you than time to see your children grow up, than your marriage, than your own mental and physical health. If it is that important to you, then do it. But know in advance that they, and you, will pay.

I have seen so many friends driven under by the stress of trying to balance families, their job, their training...I was a junior doctor for 12 years. I am now working in my 13th hospital across 7 regions. Imagine dragging a family through that...

[Http]

Omg! OP please please don't do it! It's not worth it!

[stoppingbywoods]

nocoolnames I'm sorry to be so clueless but would you mind explaining how you are a junior doctor for 12 years? Does junior doctor refer to the stage below registrar or is it a house man (if that's right?).

[Dancingwithcrutches]

If you want to do it you need to do it with the realisation that you will not be the only one making sacrifices. Your entire family is looking at the next 10-15 years of upheaval and great uncertainty. And that's if you work full time throughout. Medical school is without doubt absolutely the easiest bit.

I look at my young children now and I sometimes feel so guilty that they have doctors as parents. Always the last to remain in nursery, we never make it to school events and in a good month they may have two weekends where we get to spend it as a whole family. That is if there are no upcoming exams etc. Night shifts would mean going days without seeing that parent.

If you have asked me a few years ago if the slog was worth it I would have said yes without hesitation. Now with the increasingly horrible working conditions, government spin and seeing what my children have to give up for us to have our careers, I would have to say it wasn't worth the sacrifice.

[Dancingwithcrutches]

Juinor doctors are all fully qualified doctors who are not yet a consultant or fully qualified GP. So the shortes period one can be a junior doctor is 5 years (2 yrs foundation training + 3 yrs GP training) and for some it's up to 15 years post graduation. Most hospital consultants get there in about 8-10 years post graduation if you work full time throughout without any time out for research or maternity leave.

The term junior doctor encompass foundation doctors, core medical/surgical doctors and all registrars (a huge proportion who are in their 30s with kids).

[elastamum]

I looked at doing this a few years back. I work in pharmaceuticals and always regretted not doing medicine - but it wasn't the degree course that was the problem, it was the junior doctor years that I just couldn't see fitting round bringing up my DC (single parent). And I already earn about the same as a consultant anyway, but with a lot less stress, so I would have taken a massive pay cut. There are loads of medics jobs going in the pharmaceutical industry - most are really well paid

[PhyllidaRoe]

I went back to med school in my 40's. No family made it easier in some ways but could have done with the support of a partner (and not just financially). No matter how tough it's been I've never regretted it. If it's want you want, then you are too late to apply this year anyway. Spend a year getting your preparation done - think about 5 year as well as 4 year degrees. Think about entrance exams. Think about what the medical schools call 'relevant work experience'. This means a role looking after vulnerable people and no, your children don't count! Find something paid or voluntary in a hospice, people with special needs etc. Joined Mumsnet specially to answer you, so don't know if you can contact me but if you can, feel free to do so. Plan to make the application - closing date is 15th Oct, so not realistic for this year but preparing for applying (admission 2017 means applying in Aug/Sept 2016) will help you to make up your mind.

[nocoolnamesleft]

Junior doctor = anyone in training to become a consultant, or in training to become a GP. The day before I started my consultant job, I was a junior doctor. So, I had 1 year as a house officer, 5 as a senior house officer, and 6 as a registrar, all of which are counted as junior doctor posts.

[Aspergallus]

PhyllidaRoe are you still at medical school or actually working as a doctor?

[serin]

DH left the NHS 9 years ago after working for 20 years. During this time he totally lost sight of himself, his hobbies that he had loved had been long given up on and our children didn't know when they would see him next. Whole weeks would go by when he barely saw daylight, his sleep was affected....we both knew he was heading for a huge breakdown or worse.
He gave up and became a teacher, he has never looked back. To spend 8 weeks of summer, and dinner every evening with his children is irreplaceable.
However the legacy of the NHS lives on and if there is ever an incident at school the other teachers laugh at his need to document it (in triplicate)!
You hear teachers moaning (sorry teachers) but he honestly feels like it is a walk in the park.
I work in the NHS (therapy), there is no way I would recommend medicine as a career to our DC's. A few years ago I would have done but the bar gets raised every year in what is expected of all staff.

[PhyllidaRoe]

Now a CT1 (junior doctor....) in Psychiatry and loving every moment.

[lougle]

Psychiatry is one of the most family-friendly specialities, though, isn't it? Foundation year doctors don't get to specialise. They do what they're told, when they're told, every 6 months!

[IguanaTail]

Have you thought about teaching?

You could also join a seriously demoralised profession with us. We can also offer stupid hours and endless stress. Good points would be not having to look at arses (although plenty to deal with), training period short ("have you got a pulse" in some places), you can normally work near where you live (although not always advisable), and if you make a mistake you are unlikely to kill someone.

There are other routes if you want a disrupted family life and lots of stress.

[Whatthefoxgoingon]

The vast overwhelming majority of doctors on this thread are saying DONT DO IT.

For the love of God, listen!

I'd rather stick a flaming hot rod in my eye than be a doctor in the UK. It sounds absolutely horrendous. I've recently had my eyes opened about this, and I'm truly shocked at how demoralised doctors are. And we are talking about very intelligent, resourceful and resilient people here. Even they have had enough!

[Phoenix67]

Another junior doctor here.

All I can say is, if you can make your circumstances work around the actual degree then consider it. However be prepared to think outside of the box, with your options after the degree.

The training programme is difficult as many on this thread have said already. The rota's are unforgiving (7 nights in a row, long days until late, long commutes to and from work, studying for exams in your free time, GMC and indemnity fees etc etc etc).

It's just about manageable as if you're in your 20s/30s and single, or with an understanding partner. However any later than that or with a large family/poor support network you will be making sacrifices that, quite frankly are not worth it.

NHS HR doesn't care if you miss your friends wedding/childs birthday etc. It's difficult trying to get time off for your own special occasions (my friend had to beg to get the day off for his own wedding, and initially got told no!). If you get pregnant whilst training? You'll still be doing on calls and nights well in to the pregnancy, I was still working nights up until being 6.5 months pregnant.

To conclude: the perks are, seeing patients and making a difference in an intellectually stimulating way. However there are many jobs out there that will give you the same reward.

[stoppingbywoods]

Well, I've decided to leave for Australia the moment I qualify (theoretically).

Leaving aside the obvious ethical problems with that for a moment, would you all still say NO?

[ChatEnOeuf]

I wouldn't do it either. I'm another junior doc, ten years post graduation, who would have a cry in the cupboard if my DD said she wanted to follow in my footsteps. I love my job, I really do, but hand-on-heart I wouldn't recommend it.

Med school is great - the hours will be sociable (actually sociable), lectures 9-6 and placements similar. Some expect you to do a few night or weekend shifts so you know what's coming. Depending on where you study, the distances you will have to travel are variable (my medical school there were several commutes of well over an hour).

Foundation years are hard. No other word for it - long days/nights, long runs without a day off, the most junior person in the hospital and managing everything on the shop floor. Not by yourself but there will never be enough time for someone else to look over everything you're doing. You will make mistakes - how big and how bad they are is partly down to luck. You may not be working somewhere near your home - it's increasingly a lottery where your workplace is.

People will die, people will abuse you - verbally, and possibly physically. People will complain about you. All the time you will be giving your all - so much so that you will have very little left at home.

In amongst all of this, you will be expected to decide which specialty is the one for you. You will have to make this decision early in your career so you can tailor your spare time to give yourself the best chance of getting a place somewhere near your family. Even then, you will often end up commuting over two hours a day. Which, when your shifts can be 13 hours or more, doesn't give much rest between times. Or, you move every 6-12 months. But you can't do that to children.

All through your career you will have to pay to put yourself on courses, through exams and on study days - to show you're continuing to learn and progress. In your free time you will audit, you will prepare teaching and presentations, you will have to reflect on your practice and on events that have affected you. You will have to search for evidence to show you're competent, you will have to nag your colleagues to fill in paperwork (in their spare time) to show the same.

You may not be able to take a holiday when your family can.

You will work Christmases, birthdays, funerals, weddings and anniversaries.

If you still want to do it, go for it. But be sure.

[MarthaMonkeynuts]

OP have you considered dentistry? Very similar undergrad experience, hospital work and training up to consultant level is possible if that's what you want, but it's mostly 9-5 Mon-Fri!!

[FeliciaJollygoodfellow]

There was a thread about this a few months ago.

One thing that was brought up was that it would be incredibly difficult to actually get into med school - the amount of training means you would be nearing retirement age when you qualify. It might be deemed too mush of a risk (for them, I mean) especially as you have children to consider.

This is not even taking into consideration the issues raised recently!

[Phoenix67]

stopping I would still go to medical school but I would definitely leave the NHS asap, i.e. straight after foundation training. I would consider doing my training abroad in Australia/New Zealand/Canada then return at consultant level.

Unfortunately, emigrating is not an option for me at the moment. Therefore I'm looking in to options that are close to medicine but give a better work/life balance.

[nocoolnamesleft]

Realised that I didn't give my usual real example of how medicine takes over your own life, and that of your extended family. That would be the evening my mother rang me one evening, just before I was going to head into work:

"I'm really sorry to have to tell you that your grandma died today, but it's okay, I've told everyone we can't have the funeral until you've finished your week of nights".

[dotvicky]

As a nearly-40-year-old mummy (two boys, 6 and 8) and a junior doctor (F1), I have mixed feelings about saying that you should do it. If someone had told me 6/7 years not to go for it, I wouldn't have listened and probably still wouldn't! :D

I love being a doctor overall - what it represents is wonderful - so amazing to be there for people at their most vulnerable.

However... I really can't stress enough how tough it is as well. I did a 9am to 10pm shift yesterday. I woke up before 6am this morning because I'm having flashbacks to things I should have done better but thought I'd get up and use the time to do some research stuff that needs doing to stay competitive. I have another 10-hour day today (and every day for the rest of the week).

I've had to go the au-pair route as no nanny or other childcare option would cover the hours I work. I have been very lucky/hard working and got a very competitive job that keeps me local so I am (so far) avoiding the hour-long commutes that would have been almost guaranteed in this actually relatively small deanery. I have a very supportive husband who has been great picking up the slack on the childcare front and helping me after emotionally traumatic days. I have a great family who've been helping me out financially (although even with that, we've had to downsize the house, have had almost no meaningful family holidays for 5 years and are in a lot of debt). As of next year, if Jeremy *unt has his way, I may be earning even less than I am now (worked it out at £7.74 an hour at the moment for the actual hours I'm working) and won't have even the current meagre safeguards protecting my hours. Already, patients are queuing in A&E because the funds have been cut again and again at our hospital (and everywhere else) and it's not even winter yet. And the press still likes to paint me and my colleagues as lazy, money-hungry plebs.

Never let anyone tell you not to do something you care passionately about, I didn't and here I am and I'd still choose it again... I think...

Cheers
Vicky

[lougle]

At the end of the day, nobody can tell you it's not worth it -that's a personal judgement. But I've just returned to nursing (ICU) after an 8 year break and I've noticed how much older and sicker the patient population is. Patients would have been in ICU years ago are on the wards. Patients who would have been in hospital are at home. The workforce is spread thin.

I did 13.25 hours at work yesterday (1 hour 15 mins of breaks 15/30/30 spread through the day) and 1 hour commuting. The doctors do similar shifts. Our patients need complete monitoring and care. The doctors have to use the information that the nurses give them to decide on a plan of action. Do they prescribe fluids for a patient whose urine output is dipping, but risk overloading their already strained heart? They have to make decisions quickly and hold the information of several patients in their mind at once, making sure they don't mix up which is which.

Most doctors I speak to say that they had no idea what they were signing up for, and while they would mostly say they can't imagine doing anything else, I'm not so sure that it's because it's the only thing they could want to do, but more that it has consumed so much of them that there isn't anything left.

[curvyredmug]

Another one saying don't do it. My husband and I are both doctors and I wouldn't encourage my kids into it. Yes, it's a fantastically interesting job, but it isn't worth devastating your life for. Mid 30's is far too old.