to ask my parents and PILs to only visit to meet our baby a few months after the birth?

[magnificatAnimaMea]

We want to get settled before we get trampled on by my parents and PILs.

We're expecting our first baby next year. We live overseas from both sets of parents; both sets are young and independent enough to organise their own travel without any help from us - i.e. we're going to have to give them early and firm instructions about what we want, because they might well make their own travel decisions with absolutely no reference to us before booking anything.

Because of the likely stress involved in having a first baby, and the fact my relationship with my (frequently silly, rude, truculent, abusive and generally quite nasty) parents is strained, we don't want them visiting us - and very much don't want them staying with us. They would not be helpful - my mother's version of "help" is martyred half-doing things that other people then have to fix/finish, while whinging to everyone about how put-upon she is, and hissing vicious nastiness at me when I'm alone with her. My father will alternate between expecting people to wait on him, flouncing out of the house and sulking if someone (e.g. a new baby) does something he doesn't like (such as crying), and being angry and aggressive. Even if they don't stay with us, they're likely to massively increase the stress levels. I'm kind of on permanent red-alert having grown up with them, and I find it really hard to cope with stress because of them. The stress of a new baby combined with my parents is going to be really, really hard.

PIL are better, though very arrogant. MIL has the really unfortunate habit of kissing all her descendants on the lips all the time, while sporting extremely frequent gigantic cold sores. All her previous grandchildren have ended up with HSV infections while they were babies (thankfully not causing neonatal herpes). I would like to avoid this, but neither MIL nor FIL is the type of person to pay any attention whatsoever to a daughter-in-law who politely asks MIL not to kiss the new baby on the lips. DH agrees with me, but his mother is just going to ignore him too, while his father scoffs at him. I've seen them do this before over other things. DH's sister didn't want her kids infected with HSV either, but MIL refused to change her behaviour. Generally, MIL will judge me and probably be a bit unhelpful (she's polite, but clearly thinks I'm a bit useless).

That said, we're not going NC with either set of parents. We recognise it's their right to meet their grandchild, and that they may well want to meet the kid as soon as possible. However, how long can we put it off realistically before it looks like we're being obstructive and not recognising their needs?

i'm thinking 3-4 months? Is that too long?

Xenia - you're being a bit black and white about this. It's possible to set boundaries. I am not very good at it. Thus, I was asking for ways of dealing with the situation, not saying I was planning to capitulate. If at worst i just have to leave, then I leave. However if anyone has better ways of dealing iwth this I'd be delighted to hear them.

Further discussion upthread made me realise that they don't need to see the baby when it is under 6 months, and that we can visit them, not them us. There will be much more scope for the baby not being kissed on the lips by that stage - especially if we visit them and can leave at any point.

80% of adults have HSV1. Most people probably get it in early childhood, when initial infection is nowhere near as serious as it is in babies. By the time MIL has seen the kid 3 times, he or she is likely to already have got it from a kid at nursery.

You sound like my mother, who thinks there's no middle ground between a screaming match and being a put-upon doormat who "voluntarily" does everything she thinks might ever be asked of her. I assert that there is a middle ground, and if psychiatric nurses who are worth their salt manage to achieve something akin to that middle ground with unreasonable and illogical patients, then I'd like to try as well.

My apologies if link doesn't work. I've never attempted one before.

You need to print out this and other stories about newborns dying from kisses from herpes infected people and send them to your mil. I would not let her near my children. I have a 2 year old with eczema that she wouldn't come near. I wouldn't care if none of them ever spoke to me again.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-
2860038/They-took-tubes-got-nurse-passed-away-Parents-anguish-newborn-daughter-died-kissed-cold-sore.html

Can I also say thank you to these and earlier parents who have shared their heartbreaking stories of herpes infections. My dd1 became ill at 10 days old and I recognised that something was very wrong (and ignored the HV!), took her straight to hospital, where they put on iv antibiotics immediately. She was fine, wasn't herpes, thought it might be meningitis, but wasn't thank God. But those articles had alerted me to the signs of something being very wrong with a tiny baby, so she was treated very quickly. I'm forever in the debt of the grieving parents who publicise these awful events.

hackmum - I don't think anyone has ever actually asked her forcefully not to do it, except SIL when at her most weepy and irrational after the birth of the first grandchild. I think it was interpreted as SIL being all over the place with hormones and sleep deprivation. It came up again once or twice but SIL backed down instantly when FIL laughed at her about it. By then MIL was looking after SIL's kids 4 days out of 7 and doing most of SIL's cooking. SIL saw this as a very insignificant thing that made no difference in the end.

I don't. I absolutely loathe the lip kissing thing and am revolted by it, especially with the HSV aspect.

None of them are biologists - they genuinely don't understand how dangerous it is. Not that you need to be a biologist, of course - but in not understanding how it works, it becomes just another of those pieces of baby folklore that people can laugh off because these things all seem to make no difference in the end. They don't get that evidence> anecdote and don't take evidence seriously when it's waved in their face.

YANBU in the slightest, I am glad from your updates that you are minimising contact.

Your parents may well try to be so badly behaved towards your child,then NC would be better.

What does your partner think about stopping your baby from getting ill from your MIL?

I do not know of any but could you look over the internet for more information or those public service announcements (like the above) and share it with them in advance?

If she argues or refuses to read then I would not allow her to hold the baby at all, or FIL.

If she can put your child at risk as a vulnerable baby, then who knows what other things she could do to put at risk?

"The kissing thing is something that clearly goes very deep with her though. If possible I would like to not make our relationship break down completely. Telling someone not to do their most basic expression of love and affection is going to cut deeply, no matter that I think the habit is absolutely vile (as well as clearly very dangerous to young babies). I predict that if I try to raise it she will tell me I am out of order, possibly have a go at me about lacking boundaries in what it's acceptable to tell people to do/not do, and FIL will come to her rescue and aggressively shut down the conversation and refuse to listen to my point of view, and then she will go on as she meant to go on, FIL will publically laugh about my attempt to be utterly unreasonable in order to humiliate me, and all I'll have achieved is to make them loathe me. I'll then compound that by not letting her hold the baby, and telling her why. FIL will then probably take the baby from me and hand it to MIL."

This is your own account of your " middle ground" . Which seems all about putting you PIls needs above your child's .

I have 6 kids and none of them have the HSV1 virus , they all attended

Nursery and school . But in not sure that's relevant . The issue here is your willingness to put your child as risk so you don't feel guilty .

Nothing your have said about your parents and your PIL persuades me that they will be great grandparents and that your child will benefit from a relationship with them. All you have talked about is the adults rights and your own feelings.

Output gap - I'm glad to hear your DD is ok now . What a trauma for you all!

One question have you actually said all this to both sets of parents before posting on here? A phone call or Skype or a letter perhaps ? You see I dont have any parents and find this difficult to read.

80% of adults have HSV1. Most people probably get it in early childhood, when initial infection is nowhere near as serious as it is in babies. By the time MIL has seen the kid 3 times, he or she is likely to already have got it from a kid at nursery .

^ OP - I was with you until I read this line from you .

There is a hell of a difference between contracting the virus accidentally and practically deliberately. If you have this then you will know just how damn painful it can be, if you don't, then educate yourself on it. It can affect other areas such as the nose, eyes etc, not just the mouth, and can be agonising.

A baby/child cannot protect itself from harm, thus it relies on its parents to do so.

Stand up to these people, the MIL in particular and protect your child.

Being a grandparent is a blessing, not a given right.

My brother & his wife had a baby over seas recently.

They sent family's an e-mail saying there was accommodation available nearby ( insert details)
They said if people travelled they would try to meet up but it wasn't guaranteed.
My mother & sister travelled after 3 weeks. They spent 5 days there & met with the new family 3 times for two hours .

because things were very clear nobody was upset .

Your analogy with psychiatric staff is deeply flawed. Staff only put themselves " at risk " , there are full risk assessments and staff are rarely alone with violent patients . There are professional boundaries in place . Staff are fully trained. Some element of is risk is necessary , otherwise patients could not be cared for .

Are babies allowed on psychiatric wards and left alone with patients who may be a risk to them? Are school pupils allowed to do work experience on psychiatric wards ? No they are not .

But in your situation :

You are putting your baby at risk, not yourself

You are not trained nor supported in how to manage your PIL. In fact your own parents have trained you NOT to cope well.

Your baby could be alone with them - how are you going to stop them walking into another room with her ?

There are no boundaries in place - in fact you disagree with the concept of them

There is no need to put your child at risk here .its all about the feelings of the adults, not the welfare of the child

FIL will then probably take the baby from me and hand it to MIL. - so don't give the baby to FIL either. Put her in the sling and BF at all times. Or do you mean they would actually rip the baby from your arms?

Herpes can KILL a baby. And if not that, is at least a very unpleasant virus to have for life - and no you won't necessarily catch it, I don't have it although my mum hets cold sores all the time. You really really have to stop caring abut what your PIL think and if they like you or not, and protect your baby.

Honestly both sets of parents sound absolutely vile and I don't understand why you want to see them at all. It's not a good lesson that you will have to keep talking to horrible people who treat you like shit.

I think you have to face up to the fact of being loathed by them. I say that as someone whose IL's didn't agree with some of our childrearing practices, but I just stick to my guns. This includes saying 'no, no, no' repeatedly and removing my dd1 when my MIL wanted to just pop out and get her ears pierced aged a few months, refusing to get in their car without a car seat, refusing to go to events without water/food/supplies for children (they would go places then get very cross if they needed stuff) and I always put them to bed when I thought was ok, not when the dinner was booked at a restaurant. We just didn't attend.

If you have overbearing parents, you just have to find your inner tiger. You just do. You can't let your child ride in a car without a car seat, or get their ears pierced or get the virus through kissing, you can't. You have to be the adult, say no, endure their loathing and cut down/stop contact if they can't comply.

My experience is that once you have stood your ground once or twice, then actually things are much easier. My MIL is exceptionally badly behaved (think toddler tantrums, extreme interference, bad mouthing us) but even she gets the basic concept that if she wants to see the children she has to be reasonably polite, pleasant, not have tantrums, and do what we say as we are the parents.

You're worried that if you stand up for yourself and your baby, this will make the relationship break down completelty. But your PIL's don't seem to be the least bit concerned that it might affect your relationship, if they treat their son and DIL with utter contempt, laughing at their requests and doing whatever they please anyway. Think about it. Why are you the only one who has to pander to their needs?

Like a few other posters, your thread title made me think YWBVU. However, having read this, the only thing that I think would be unreasonable is for you to take your baby to visit someone who you expect to physically take him/her from you and hand them over to be kissed by someone with a cold sore.

If you genuinely think that might happen, don't go anywhere near them.

YABVVVVVVVVVVVU that you are going to allow your baby come into contact with such a piece of shit that would want to give a baby herpes. Honestly OP, WTF are you thinking? And yes, your PILs are pieces of shit that they have deliberately passed on the herpes virus to all their GC. And the fact that you are so blasé about it really annoys me with you saying 80% of adults have it. That is no reason to expose an innocent child to a potentially fatal disease.

I would be going NC with both sets of parents. I would rather my child not be exposed to toxic people rather than a lifetime of misery dealing with their horrible crap. And I would be telling PIL exactly why they are not allowed even touch your baby. She sounds like a right fucking bitch. Ugh, the thoughts of getting a kiss from a person with a cold sore is just gross.

Actually, everyone saying HPV isn't inevitable are right. Dd got a cold sore at nursery but we were very careful and ds (the 2 year old with eczema) doesn't have the virus.

FIL will then probably take the baby from me

And that's the point you throw them out of your house, right? You're saying you don't dare set boundaries with your mother in law because your father in law will forcibly take you child from you? And this is OK? Seriously?

My DD became very ill after contracting HPV virus, we are talking tube feeding in Isolation and a stay in hospital. I don't let anyone kiss her on her lips and if they had a cold sore I wouldn't let them near her and explain why.

If I were you OP can you lie about due date? buy yourself a bit of time?

I would say prior to their visit that you don't want anyone kissing your baby on the lips and if they try then take baby off them and out into a sling.

FIL will then probably take the baby from me and hand it to MIL

Like other posters are saying, you just don't let him have the baby, either.

Like it or not, in setting boundaries you are going to be faced with some loathing, etc, because these people are not used to you/DH setting boundaries that stop them from doing what they want.

Put your baby first, and ignore the inevitable temper tantrums.

I disagree with some of your beliefs , eg that you should stick by family even if they are "hard work" (emotionally abusive?) and don't think it is good for DC to see their parent(s) putting avoidance of conflict or breakdown of relations with unreasonable people over themselves and their DC.

I had pretty toxic grandparents and relatives and contact was very limited, which was a good thing IMO. The reasons for were explained gradually, in age appropriate ways. I still remember the times my parents went against their instincts/boundaries , eg letting GPs look after us alone sometimes when desperate for childcare (difficult employers, not much cash) because the relative sometimes behaved in nasty or unsafe ways which was upsetting and frightening.

Health professionals and service users are completely different relationships to family relationships. Your thinking on this sounds clouded and affected by FOG (fear, obligation, guilt).

It is ideally for your DP to handle his parents: does he back you 100% on the need to make sure the baby is not exposed to health risks by his mother (and father, since FiL backs her up)? If not, that's another problem.

Yanbu at all, your parents, I don't know why you bother with them, they sound god awful. Your in laws, and the cold sores, Would be concerning, especially a new born. I would visit them instead, like others have said, your in control.

They both sound awful, definitely you have to set your rules and boundaries. I would nit be having anything to do with them until the baby is 18, let alone 3 months.

I opened this expecting to see a precious moments post, but bloody hell.
I think we'd hav found both sets of parents very hard work and don't blame you at all.
can you not visit them when baby is a few months old to give you more control over the visit?

Hi OP,

For what it's worth, I allowed my toxic parents to visit when my first baby was born (9 years ago). I didn't want it but felt obliged.

It was awful and I was so stressed because as you said with a first baby it is hard anyway.

I've sincehad two more children, by the third I was estranged from them. The comparison in how much happier I was having my third, knowing they weren't coming is huge. I still feel sad how it marred that precious time with my eldest. I'm sure it triggered PND too.

My eldest is now a lovely 9 year old and i'be put it largely behind me. But yes it was all about them and they we're critical andnasty.

This is a time about you and your baby. Grandparents should be involved if they are respectful, loving and helpful.

I feel for you.

Tbh by doing this am sure you'll remain fairly estranged with the families anyway.

My DB and SIL did this. We all make an effort but there is no relationship I would say between any of my family and them and their two DC.

Doesn't sound like any of you are going to miss that though.

I do wish my DB and SIL would just leave us all to it - they say they want to meet up say once a year (even though I don't think they do really) and it is such hard work I would rather not bother, but for some reason we all go through this ridiculous farce for 'the children!!!'.

Dear dear me.

Hope you able to develop a bit more affection for your baby than you have for your parents and parents in law.