to ask my parents and PILs to only visit to meet our baby a few months after the birth?

[magnificatAnimaMea]

We want to get settled before we get trampled on by my parents and PILs.

We're expecting our first baby next year. We live overseas from both sets of parents; both sets are young and independent enough to organise their own travel without any help from us - i.e. we're going to have to give them early and firm instructions about what we want, because they might well make their own travel decisions with absolutely no reference to us before booking anything.

Because of the likely stress involved in having a first baby, and the fact my relationship with my (frequently silly, rude, truculent, abusive and generally quite nasty) parents is strained, we don't want them visiting us - and very much don't want them staying with us. They would not be helpful - my mother's version of "help" is martyred half-doing things that other people then have to fix/finish, while whinging to everyone about how put-upon she is, and hissing vicious nastiness at me when I'm alone with her. My father will alternate between expecting people to wait on him, flouncing out of the house and sulking if someone (e.g. a new baby) does something he doesn't like (such as crying), and being angry and aggressive. Even if they don't stay with us, they're likely to massively increase the stress levels. I'm kind of on permanent red-alert having grown up with them, and I find it really hard to cope with stress because of them. The stress of a new baby combined with my parents is going to be really, really hard.

PIL are better, though very arrogant. MIL has the really unfortunate habit of kissing all her descendants on the lips all the time, while sporting extremely frequent gigantic cold sores. All her previous grandchildren have ended up with HSV infections while they were babies (thankfully not causing neonatal herpes). I would like to avoid this, but neither MIL nor FIL is the type of person to pay any attention whatsoever to a daughter-in-law who politely asks MIL not to kiss the new baby on the lips. DH agrees with me, but his mother is just going to ignore him too, while his father scoffs at him. I've seen them do this before over other things. DH's sister didn't want her kids infected with HSV either, but MIL refused to change her behaviour. Generally, MIL will judge me and probably be a bit unhelpful (she's polite, but clearly thinks I'm a bit useless).

That said, we're not going NC with either set of parents. We recognise it's their right to meet their grandchild, and that they may well want to meet the kid as soon as possible. However, how long can we put it off realistically before it looks like we're being obstructive and not recognising their needs?

i'm thinking 3-4 months? Is that too long?

Attilla - you're completely right that it isn't what I want to show the kid. However, I'm treading a line between not wanting that, and not wanting to show a kid that you automatically drop people who are hard work, when those people are elderly (they will be by the time the kid's noticing) or have difficulty with insight and behavioural control (my parents).

I would rather maintain highly-controlled contact where we shield the kid from the worst behaviours or anything potentially frightening, and explain to him/her that one doesn't abandon people who are hard work if they're also close family, but that sometimes people's behaviours aren't very nice. We would discuss any behaviours the kid had seen, with him/her, in an age-appropriate fashion, explaining that granny and grandpa don't really understand / have had a hard life / would have a less hard life if they did understand but that's the problem with not understanding...

I think the first visit is a red herring. Let's say they come at 6 months, won't your DM and DF still behave in an unacceptable way for this and any subsequent visits? You may not have the newborn exhaustion but you may be going through a sleep regression, teething, toddler tantrums, etc.

I think you need to consider if you really want a relationship with your parents and under what terms. Then tell them the terms and stick to them.

DM sounds easier. Ask her not to visit with a cold sore, if she turns up with one she does not get to touch or cuddle the baby much less kiss her, if she does not listen pick up the baby and leave.

X-post with your last post. I had the same ideas about my alcoholic DF. When DD was 4mo he saw her for the second time after her birth. He stuck his face right up to hers and shouted her name about ten times, DD burst into tears and she never had to see him again. My point being that some things that you can tolerate, excuse and explain as an adult become immediately unacceptable when done to your kids. Your DC will be exposed to this behavior for quite a few years before you can start explaining its reasons and you may find this intolerable.

Booboostwo - having myself been a child being frightened by an aggressive and unpleasant grandmother as well as both my aggressive parents, I'm definitely not going to be exposing any child of mine to the kind of stuff i saw as a child - the angry door-slamming father, the petulant nasty mother. THe minute they start up those behaviours, I'm off. Even if that means visits are five minutes long.

Sorry - should have clarified - posts upthread made me think it's a much better idea to visit the parents than have them visit us.

You need to be careful that in showing your DC that you shouldn't cut people out of your life, you're not showing them that they should let people treat them badly for the sake of keeping the peace.

Be firm on your boundaries and enforce them. If your DM is rude to you, tell her you won't tolerate being spoke to like that, and leave the room.

If your dmil picks up the baby whilst she has a cold sore, then you calmly take the baby back and tell her that if she can't respect your boundaries, you will have to leave.

It doesn't need to be confrontational, just calmly assertive.

It's much easier to leave their home than get them to leave yours.

Hi magnificat,

re your comments in quote marks:-

"Attilla - you're completely right that it isn't what I want to show the kid. However, I'm treading a line between not wanting that, and not wanting to show a kid that you automatically drop people who are hard work, when those people are elderly (they will be by the time the kid's noticing) or have difficulty with insight and behavioural control (my parents)".

Fear, obligation and guilt are but three of many legacies left to their now adult children by their not so good or loving parents.

Each set of grandparents here were not good parents to either of you and they will not be good grandparent figures to your child either. Give this some more thought; they are simply not just hard work are they?. They only care about getting their own needs met and will and do disregard their own DDs wishes to get what they want. Your parents also have no filters or insight already. The "normal" rules of dealing with such people therefore go out the window when it comes to such dysfunctional people; they are certainly not emotionally healthy people are they?.

"I would rather maintain highly-controlled contact where we shield the kid from the worst behaviours or anything potentially frightening, and explain to him/her that one doesn't abandon people who are hard work if they're also close family, but that sometimes people's behaviours aren't very nice. We would discuss any behaviours the kid had seen, with him/her, in an age-appropriate fashion, explaining that granny and grandpa don't really understand / have had a hard life / would have a less hard life if they did understand but that's the problem with not understanding..."

You won't be able to achieve that noble aim. The damage to your child will be done right in front of your very eyes and you feel unable to say anything now when they have not even visited you yet. It is not correct to say that we do not abandon people who are hard work (they are not just hard work); this is actually quite a naïve idea. Neither of you would have tolerated any of this whatsoever from friends, family I argue are no different. It will also not do your child any favours at all for him/her to continuously see you as her mum and dad be disrespected and walked over by each set of grandparents. Their own way is their way; you will never get them to understand at all. It is not your fault they are like this; you did not make them that way. Their own families of origin did that lot of damage to them and such stuff like this can and does go down the generations.

Others have got this right:

• visit them not the other way round
• promise a visit "as soon as possible" that you can keep pushing back until you feel ready.

Living abroad - especially if you're in a place with nicer weather than the UK - leaves you vulnerable to long visits by people you don't like that much, and it really helps to be firm from the start!

Sorry but the herpes and ignoring requests not to.kiss would be reason enough for me to feel very happy refusing to see them. You and your dh should start as you mean to go on if you want to wait til dc are older tell the in-laws and parents to wait.

Wow, first impression was yes, very unreasonable. Now I think, no. You don't need that with a newborn.

Deffo go and visit them, but not until you are ready.

I absolutely agree with other posters who've said the grandparents don't have a right to see the baby -- no one has rights over a child, only responsibilities. If your MIL gives babies herpes, she doesn't sound like she respects the most basic of those responsibilities. No way would I allow her to touch my baby unless/until I was sure she was not going to do that.

Good luck with everything.

Oh god. Your parents sound like charmers. His sound - well, after reading about MIL and her cold sores I feel quite ill. Hasn't anybody ever said anything to her? I mean, are we all so bloody British and polite that no-one says: "You are going to pass on an infection if you kiss people on the lips with those cold sores."

I mean, gross.

Sounds like you're trying your absolute best to be as fair as possible to everyone here. I suspect when your baby arrives the whole 'mama bear' thing will hit and you will care a lot less about placating your parents and PIL. Which would be a good thing.

The cold sore thing is really standing out to me. Sorry to be blunt but she could actually kill a baby doing that. I would be having a very frank discussion about it, and if she refused to agree to not kissing, then she would never hold my baby. Baby would be in a sling for the duration of the visit and would not be coming out. I don't think I could trust anyone who would put their own wants above a newborn's basic safety.

I read the thread title and wanted to come say how unreasonable you are,. But after reading the post as well - bloody hell! Sure you want to see those people at all, ever??

one doesn't abandon people who are hard work if they're also close family - actually, I would say that one does not have to be around nasty people just because you happen to be related. Does not sound like you owe them anything and like the add somethign do your life.

I am close to agreeing with you all about minimizing contact with the parents/PIL to an absolute bare minimum. Visits once a year, skype calls where the internet breaks every time someone is rude.

I definitely agree about MIL not being allowed to hold the baby.

The kissing thing is something that clearly goes very deep with her though. If possible I would like to not make our relationship break down completely. Telling someone not to do their most basic expression of love and affection is going to cut deeply, no matter that I think the habit is absolutely vile (as well as clearly very dangerous to young babies). I predict that if I try to raise it she will tell me I am out of order, possibly have a go at me about lacking boundaries in what it's acceptable to tell people to do/not do, and FIL will come to her rescue and aggressively shut down the conversation and refuse to listen to my point of view, and then she will go on as she meant to go on, FIL will publically laugh about my attempt to be utterly unreasonable in order to humiliate me, and all I'll have achieved is to make them loathe me. I'll then compound that by not letting her hold the baby, and telling her why. FIL will then probably take the baby from me and hand it to MIL.

Does anyone have a remotely better way of handling this?

(other than, don't visit the buggers in the first place, ever. I am not quite at that stage yet. i may well get to it very quickly though)

Erm, you hang on to the baby, and bite them if they try anything?

Then chuckle merrily and say that you're sure they won't mind the risk of catching rabies from you...

Can I just check - you are willing to risk your baby catching a serious infection because you want to teach your child a lesson about not setting boundaries with difficult relatives ???

No, I see that in fact you are willing to risk you baby's health so that they don't " loathe " you.

Sorry, but once you are parents, you and your husband need to put your child's welfare above your own feelings, including your need to have people like you or agree with your or think you are reasonable . Or your desire to teach your child dubious moral lessons , such as " you cannot set boundaries with your family members" .

God. I clicked on this thread to say YABU, but seriously, YANBU at ALL. Not even a tiny little bit.

I agree with the plan to say "we'll visit you!!" and then just not.

OP, your post about the kissing thing going very deep with her - I mean, is she completely insensible to reason? If she has already passed on her infection to other children in the family through her disgusting habit of kissing them on the lips, is she genuinely so self-centred that she will carry on doing it even if asked not to?

I suppose the answer is "Yes". In which case I think you just need to stay away from her as far as possible. Also, I really think this is one for your DH to deal with - he needs to be absolutely firm with her. What is he, man or mouse? (Said tongue in cheek, just to be clear.)