AIBU to ask if I should be worried or she's just not that into me?

[malin1]

DF died a long time ago when DM was relatively young. So, she's been a widow a long time. DM likes to go to church (every day at least once).

I live a long way away. I have had a difficult relationship with her for most of my life. I tried going NC with her at one point but I couldn't forget her. Recently (i.e. the last few years), things have got better. We speak on the phone frequently and see each other for visits a couple of times a year.

The last couple of times that I spoke to her, she was quite cold with me and was saying rude provocative things. I could see that she was annoyed with me for something or other and experience has taught me to not ask her to tell me, as she is spiteful when in a mood. So, i pretend not to notice.

She hasn't called me for weeks since. Usually she'd be demanding that i speak to her by phone for at least 3 hours each week. So, she's obviously in a really bad mood with me this time.

So, maybe she's just not that into me right now. I don't like it but its not a problem to cope with and TBH I'd rather not hear from her than have her making digs at me.

However, something else is nagging at the back of my mind. These last few years, she's been getting in with a group of people at church. I don't know who they are, and I never really gave them any thought until recently. I just knew that she had new friends.

Their appearance in her life has coincided with DM's near obsession about her will. She likes to think out loud to me about how maybe she shouldn't leave her money to her children. Personally, i think she's deluded about how much she will have left by the time she dies, so I won't let her bait me into replying.

Also, DM has got even worse about showing tolerance to people who don't support her religion. I heard a voicemail from one of her friends asking how she'd coped attending a family humanist funeral. Not the ordeal of saying goodbye (she didn't care about the person anyway) but the horror of the being present for the humanist bit.

Then a few months ago, she told me that one of the friends had suggested she join a special organisation within the church. They do special retreats and once you join, you may not leave. The friend was advising mum to think carefully because after joining you had to be really devout. I remember thinking that this was weird, as mum is about as devout as you can get anyway, and also thinking that I really don't like the sound of those friends.

Anyway, now DM appears to have dropped me, after years of being unreasonable demanding of my attention. Please tell me that this is just another chapter in her abusive behaviour to me and the friend-church cult sounding thing is just my imagination going wild.

Obviously, we will never know the full story.

But your dm and her church sound a bit batty...

Well, what's the loss even if she joins the nutters? They get her cash and you don't?

Sounds a bit of a favour to you really, at least you don't have to put up with her abusing you.

The church itself is mainstream but there's a small number who turn up every day who are a bit more hardcore. Then of the small handful, there's a few like my mum who use the fact that they go every day to make themselves feel superior - I am so holy, I lead such a devout life that no one who leads a less devout life may reproach me for my behaviour. They get the whole humility thing, but only pay lip service to it. In their eyes, there is no such thing as too much.

It takes a lot to let go of your parent. I tried when I went no contact with her and just couldn't do it. I got pulled back by mixed up feelings of love and duty and just not being able to live with the thought of having given up on her.

She is certainly abusive though and very, very hard work.

The reason I reckon she won't have much money left by the time she dies is that I've seen how care costs can eat into life savings. Mum has not. being brutally honest, I have a strong preference that she spent her money on paying for carers than either saving it up to give to us or handing it over to the church and then lean on us when she gets old and frail.

Does it seem very unlikely that she is being pulled in to some sect? Does that really happen apart from a few extreme American cults?

bump! anyone?

'Once you join, you may not leave' sounds a little dramatic.

How old is she? Unless she has a huge amount of money, I would have thought if she's elderly, she'd be less attractive a proposition to them if they would have to take care of her.

It's a horrible situation you're in. Just make sure you don't get into the situation where she spends all her money and wants to live with you when she's old.

I would put off calling her for a while, unless you could call when you know she's out and leave a voicemail message - just "Hi, how are you? Hope everything's okay."

They do special retreats and once you join, you may not leave. The friend was advising mum to think carefully because after joining you had to be really devout.

I'm a regular church goer and probably more into it than the average bod, however that sounds a tad cultish. Anyone should be free to leave any part of Church activities at any point they want. However if your mum is so wrapped up in it then it's going to be very very hard to get her to see that without her cutting you off. What type of Church is it?

A mainstream Christian one. One of the big ones.

Mum is in her mid 70s. I don't think they will look after her in her old age. It is about what she can contribute, not what she can take (apart from spiritual purity or whatever they call it).

If she has no money, and needs care, then she'll have the same state help / family help options that everyone else has.

Last time she spoke to me, she was really frosty. She was telling me about food banks and how her friends know all about them, but she was angry with me saying I know nothing about real suffering etc. It sounds very worthy doesn't it? Maybe it is? Maybe they are all saints awaiting entrance to heaven. But DM has turned nastier to her own family under their guidance and distanced herself.

I can't think of any mainstream Christian church which would have a policy of "Once you join, you may not leave"!

I'd report them to their superiors in the next level above them in the church structure. It could well be that they are totally unaware of what's going on, and that it's against the church rules.

If you don't know who to contact, I'd email someone through the national website of that particular church, and ask who you should be contacting with a complaint.

Third Order? Legion of Mary? Sounds more like the Third Order, which is a really nice group, but there are always nutjobs who, in my opinion, are not very bright or well educated, who turn these things in to holy cults, much to the exasperation of the unfortunate actual clerics who have to run them and try to keep tabs on the Holy Joes. It sounds like your mother has been picked up by some of these people and, perhaps being lonely, is a bit flattered by the attention etc. My Mum was in the Third Order of St. Francis and was highly intelligent, deeply spiritual, and got a lot out of it, but there were definitely some crazies.

I'm a bit weird about these groups (evidently), but she won't actually come to any harm. Might get a bit dizzy from all the tea, biscuits and rosaries.

It doesn't sound from your OP that it's one of the more worrying evangelical churches that sucks your life away - in that case, I'd be more concerned.

A quick Google has revealed that ALL the orders have Third Orders attached them. Who knew?

I wish I could remember the name of the group. I just didn't really pay attention at the time she told me (around 6 months ago).

I thought it sounded weird but Mum is always going on about something or other - whether its getting her roof coated with some protective nonsense, buying a new car, how to avoid the door to door salesmen that she seems to attract or joining some new church group. There's always something and its boring to listen to. So I turn the volume down and only react when she looks like she's getting herself into difficulty again.

That woman who left the voicemail about the humanist funeral sounded so caring, but her words were poison. I was really hurt by the whole idea that mum had clearly been complaining about going.

I think you have to do research on the particular church to find out if it is a cult. Even some big churches are a bit cultlike imo. But if it's C of E/Catholic church I wouldn't worry. It's upsetting she is distancing herself from you, but she may be finding spiritual fulfilment of a sort. Look after yourself and remember you can't control her behaviour nor is it your fault.

Its RC. So not to worry?

There's all sorts of sub organisations. I don't really know much about them. What caught me was the think, pray, take this seriously because once you join, you can't leave. I thought it sounded more than a bit OTT.

If mum has just found something or someone that means she doesn't need to lean on me, with lengthy phone calls and sulks when i cant speak for an hour, then i am only glad.

Dh will be delighted because they used to stress me out and he often got beans on toast for dinner because she did like to call at 6pm and not let me off the phone for an hour. Sometimes, after an hour, she'd hang up and call me back for another hour. It was exhausting.

But it is strange to suddenly have this hostile silence. I have no idea why she is angry with me.

It might be Opus Dei, they don't like people leaving. It sounds like you are very caring towards your mother but she doesn't give much back. Could you not try and foster better relationships with your siblings rather than begging your mother for her begrudging attention.

Opus Dei is pretty full on, but despite all the criticism, she is still not likely to come to any harm, or be brainwashed. There is tithing, I think, but that's not unreasonable.

I've read the Dan Browne book so I think i'd have registered Opus Dei. (Mum refused to read the book - said it was sacrilegious or something!)

The cult must have been something else. The retreat connected with it was in Surrey though. I just looked at its website and it looks innocuous enough.

I would probably send a parcel by recorded/registered post to see if she is home? Say that as you are going to be very busy around the Christmas period you wanted to send your gift early. If she signs for it then you know that she is home and just ignoring you?

Are there any other relatives who are in touch with her that you can just contact to for piece of mind?

I think she is at home. I'm not calling her. I called her the last two times, and she was icy cool, and frankly I am not brave enough to risk the blast that comes when she thinks I am not feeling her anger enough.

(She used to hit us when we were little until we cried. That way she knew that we felt the pain and that we had got her message. Now, she just ups the nastiness until we break, or she gets distracted / falls out with someone else and forgets all about it. That's what I am hoping for this time too.)

Whatever the organisation is, it won't want her physically. It will just want her money and her soul (not to be too dramatic but I can't think how else to put it!)

I could call one of my siblings. We try to avoid talking about Mum as we never agree. She usually has one of us in deep favour, another as the black sheep and a third left out it. However, i could give it a go and see what interaction they've had recently.

I grew up Catholic and tbh, in Ireland at least, it's not unusual for the average retired person to go to daily mass, without necessarily being toweringly devout. Both my parents go daily, and my mother goes to at least one other novena/devotions a week without thinking it's out of the ordinary.

I honestly can't think of a single mainstream Catholic lay organisation - whatever I might think of them - that would in any sense try to prevent someone leaving, defraud her of her money or that would police her devoutness. The friend who told her this sounds confused.

I'm more interested in why it sounds as if you are so passive in this apparently addictively-toxic relationship. No one can force you to stay on the phone for an hour over dinner time, after all. You sound afraid of her, OP. And as if (as with lots of people in abusive relationships) you are trying to come up with a rationale for her silence, but you can't decide if she's angry with you, or is being brainwashed by a cult...? Have you had therapy?

Getting off the phone is far from easy! Often the only choices are to wait until she's ready to stop or hang up. If I say that one of the children is hurt, or the dinner is burning, or ready to be served or there is someone at the door, she just ploughs on.

All i can do is either hang up or wait. Hanging up would have consequences though. It would take her ages to stop going on about it, so its easier to just do another 40 mins.

If i see her number come up, and let it go to voicemail, she tuts into the answering machine and calls again. And again. If i am genuinely out, she is cynical about it when I speak to her next.

So, being ignored isn't all bad. I was enjoying it for the first few weeks but then the doubts about what is brewing for me started to bite.

No, I haven't had therapy. At first, i wouldn't have thought it would help as I didn't consider the relationship abusive, although i can see that it is now. I can't afford it these days, but I can see that it would help.

Her religion isn't doing her much good if she insists on talking on the phone when one of her grandchildren is hurt and needing his/her mum!

Hi, Sorry you're having a difficult/abusive time with your Mum. Seems to have been going on a long time. Does the name Neocatechumenate sound like the group your mum is with? They are a bit exclusive. And they do like collections! Mostly, though they do their best according to their lights.
I know it might be difficult but I feel you ought to be more assertive and not take any more of her antics. Just remind her, that she may need help quite soon, and that all her money won't last more than a year in a care home. Then what? Sometimes elderly parents forget that their children are grown adults with lives over their own and their own way of seeing things. I do this with my beautiful DD's, except they're not slow to say, especially the youngest.
It's NOT wrong to do your own thing, in your own home, in your own time.

It might have been Neocatechumenate, but I am not sure. The word looks slightly familiar but maybe that's only because words like catechist are.

I don't blame the church here. It took me a long time to realise that it wasn't what I thought growing up and that most people who go there are perfectly normal.

The church can be a comfort and a force for good. People like my mum though use it to justify their behaviour, which is ugly. They seem to think that the more someone goes to church, the better a person they are. They never step back and look at the things they actually do, which in my mum's case can be very selfish and small-minded. I do wonder what the priest thinks of them? Good catholics, or a down-side of the job?

ImperialBlether, putting her needs before her grandchildren's is the least of my mother's sins! but what you have to realise is that neither of us has moral superiority over her, since we are not as devout as her, therefore our opinions are irrelevant. (Assuming that you aren't a member of the clergy!)

When the children are hurt or the dinner is burning, I sort it out one handed whilst she just keeps talking. She is lonely.