To not see the big deal about Jewish and Muslim dc wearing red disks

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www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/french-school-forces-muslim-and-jewish-pupils-to-wear-coloured-discs-a6669396.html

So basically it stops dc being given food they can't have at lunchtime and no way imo can it be compared to the yellow star.

I might be biased in that I am a school cook and before that a nursery cook where every dc had a placemat with their photo and dietary preference. Schools don't do this instead we have a list with photos on and what they can't have but we have had near misses with jelly for example. A child who couldn't have the jelly asked for the jelly knowing they couldn't have the jelly and luckily as soon as the server put the jelly on the plate the child said but I'm not allowed this it's not halal and she had a fresh new plate of food.

Something for the cooks to see in primary schools to avoid mix ups is a great idea. The only problem I see with what the French have done is not to do it for all dietary requirements like allergies and intolerances

However, I do get upset/concerned when I see very young girls in headscarfs, so I'm as much a hypocrite as anyone.

Is don't think it is hypocritical. I think many people object to the idea of early sexualisation of girls.

that's distinct from say little sikh boys or jews wearing turbans or skull caps. Very few people object to that even though it's the same idea of forcing religion on young kids. The difference is the meaning behind it.

DD's school do wrist bands based on choices that they make themselves that morning (veggie, meat or jacket potato). The food is cooked based on these choices. Mine has usually forgotten what she picked by the time she gets to lunch time so the band helps - otherwise they end up deciding that they want something else when they see what their friends are having.

If you're ok with a card (hygiene aside), and ok with a wrist band is there that much different about a sticker/badge (hands free)? Would it be ok if everyone had to wear one?

As lots of people point out, the food doesn't necessarily look any different so if you've got someone who doesn't speak or understand the language it's going to be tricky to identify their needs, especially in a large group of children who have to eat quickly.

When it comes to headscarves (and derailing the thread ) I'm not sure that my (and apparently others') dislike boils down to the association with early sexualisation of girls. Sometimes it's that the garments can seem physically restrictive, but mostly I think it's that Islam is, at the moment, associated in the West with its radical manifestations and a very curtailed role for women, forced marriage and so on - even though I expect most Muslims are as horrified by this as non-Muslims.

As a result, a little girl in a headscarf seems the victim of oppression (unlike little Sikhs, Jews, Christians etc), more so because they are very young. But it's as much about our perception of Islam as anything else.

Of all dietary restrictions my greatest sympathies go out to Jains who can't eat crisps potatoes

This is what my teenager says when referring to the fact that I won't allow her to have a smartphone

Hardly the same as forcing a religous diet on a child is it? Teenagers will use any reason to get their own way.

As a very secular Jew I don't find it abusive at all to have one's child eat the same diet as one chooses for oneself on religious grounds

Your choice in your home we all 'choose' what we feed our children, however, until they have grown up and can decide what they believe themselves, surely in the outside world they could be allowed to eat what others are allowed?

I'm not sure that my (and apparently others') dislike boils down to the association with early sexualisation of girls. Sometimes it's that the garments can seem physically restrictive, but mostly I think it's that Islam is, at the moment, associated in the West with its radical manifestations and a very curtailed role for women, forced marriage and so on - even though I expect most Muslims are as horrified by this as non-Muslims.

well, some of the things you describe borderline on seeing girls in a way that they need to be hidden. Girls (as opposed to boys) need to cover up for specific reasons, which have to do with hiding oneself.

And muslims girls are no younger than sikhs and jews who also have headdress. if anything, muslims girls are older. I see boys slightly older than toddlers wearing turbans or skull caps.

O-Kay, so it matters not if Jewish and Muslim people say that it has racist connotations. Got it.

However, if those living in France say it is done to with racist connotations, then clearly it isn't that straightforward

Some of those living in France. I think it was probably clumsy and thoughtless rather than ill-intentioned and was stamped on very quickly.

On this occasion it was probably done with good intentions, but there is an issue in France with FN town councils using school canteen menus as a weapon in an ideological war.

Hence the kerfuffle.

OP, I am absolutely free to "over-react" whenever I see fascism and discrimination wrapped up as "common sense" and forced down people's throats.

It was people "over-reacting" in places like Cable Street that meant that Britain did not fall to fascism.

"No harm intended" isn't a free pass for everything. Very similar to someone deeply sexist or racist like saying "it was only a joke" to cover up their intended aggression.

Your attitude is deeply reactionary and repressive.

"Hardly the same as forcing a religous diet on a child is it?"

Not eating ham and prawns is not "forcing a religious diet" anymore than the fact that I won't allow sugary, crappy cereals is "forcing a diet".

If it is religious based, then yes,..it is enforcing a religious diet unless there are other reasons you are not allowing Ham & prawns.
Your reasons for not allowing sugary, crappy cereals is health based. Totally different.

If it is religious based, then yes,..it is enforcing a religious diet unless there are other reasons you are not allowing Ham & prawns. Your reasons for not allowing sugary, crappy cereals is health based. Totally different.

The dictates of a religious diet are usually only a small part of a larger cuisine. Not eating pork is only a tiny part of the pakistani diet, or the arab diet and while both muslim, and those cuisines likely have little in common accept for the pork rules.

I for one would much rather have the restrictions of a pakistani diet, than the freedom of an english one.

This is one of those times when you look at the incident in isolation and it appears harmless and indeed, in this case it was well intentioned. However, occasionally, words or practices have such horrific historical connotations that we just have to accept that however innocent or well intentioned the use would be, we simply must say no, that word or practice is unacceptable.

I do look forward to the day when our schools in the UK become secular though. Religious instruction should remain at home and within places of worship. School should be a big pot of children of all faiths and none, learning about world religions and atheism together and without prejudice.

I for one would much rather have the restrictions of a pakistani diet, than the freedom of an english one

Have to say,..I get that.

Pakistani diet ....
kfoods.com/images/Rest-images/206_2.jpg

I think the idea of every kid picking up a wristband/tag/whatever at the beginning of the day and then handing it over at lunchtime sounds better than just choosing some kids to be marked out.

As someone said upthread, there are some things which are objectively, logically harmless when considered in a vaccuum, but in reality have too much historical resonance to make them anything like a good idea.

As someone who has / has had DC in French secular state school, French secular private school and French private Catholic school (my Jewish DSSs): moral/ethical education is sorely lacking in secular French schools and the brand new curriculum to address this gap is not going to help

@Peace food available in Pakistan isn't necessarily what's referred to by "pakistani diet".

johnwick you are being ridiculous and inflaming. No one else is throwing insults around and you have no idea of the views I hold. I have already stated in my op I may be biased as I work in a school kitchen and can see first hand how practical this would be. If your going to derail the thread by being an idiot then please do bugger off or actually read the whole thread.

OP, you said its not a big deal, you said the parents are over-reacting and now that Johnwick is overreacting. Your view on this does seem fairly clear.

I don't really see the difference between a badge or a band or a card if it's for everyone.

I've stated quite a few times singled out for religious reasons alone is not acceptable and the pitfalls of just having a list with crap photos on doesn't help kitchen staff and stop mistakes from being made.

How is that being deeply reactionary or being on glue. I find it quite offensive to say I might as well be nailing and tattooing marks onto children to single them out. I am not repressed I can see both sides.

If you don't get why this is offensive, learn about these religions, learn about history, read up about French politics, ask Jewish and Muslim communities about the vile abuse they have to put up with, then you won't be so ignorant.

And thinking that 'forcing religious beliefs on children is a form of abuse' is utterly ridiculous. Let's ban religion then. Or rather, let's ban Muslim and Jews. OK, if we have to put up with them, let's mark them as different.

Lovely.

Restricting what your children eat in a desperate attempt to appease your invisible 'friend' does seem a bit absurd. And then expecting others to respect that choice.

Young children should be allowed to eat what they please at school.