Page 16 | to be surprised that a scientist with a doctorate is religious

Margaritapracataz · 2015-09-22T06:45:05+00:00

I assumed she was joking, but no she's a very intelligent woman (double first) but she has deeply religious beliefs. Aibu to think this is a bit strange and to think less of her professionally?

redstrawberry10 · 23/09/2015 00:56

Well, I work in evolution and I am catholic.

how, if at all, does catholicism inform your work in evolution?

Breadandwine · 23/09/2015 01:08

It's just that they can also search beyond what we can perceive with our limited mammalian senses.

Hmm… My 'limited mammalian senses' aren't up to the job of deciphering that sentence.

Since we seem to have quite a few self-evidently intelligent religious posters on this thread, I wonder if one of you could answer this question - which I've been asking to no avail for over 60 years.

All the suffering in this world is supposed to be the work of the devil, we're told. OK, but if the Christian God is omnipotent and omniscient, as we're also told, then the devil must operate with God's approval. How else?

Wearyheadedlady · 23/09/2015 01:40

Such a fascinating discussion topic. I haven't read all 16 pages but many of the first few and several of the last.

Faith is that, its an emotional, gut response. It has nothing to do with logic, reason or understanding.

Science is logic, reason, understanding.

The two things are separate and human response to them is separate.

You can argue a whole list of reasons why there is no god, but feel in your heart that there is. If that makes sense.

Bumbledumb · 23/09/2015 01:44

the devil must operate with God's approval

That's essentially what happens in the book of Job.

SushiAndTheBanshees · 23/09/2015 01:56

Haven't RTFT but really can't see how there's so much to say. I am neither a scientist nor religious but to me it's quite clear and there's no dichotomy.

Science = how

Religion = why.

Personally, the more I teach myself about science, the more inclined I am to believe in God. It's mind-blowingly improbable, coincidence and fluke really stretch the bounds of credibility. A gap which faith fills very nicely.

Boleh · 23/09/2015 02:33

Another Christian with a PhD here, in geology no less. I don't believe in the literal truth of the whole of the bible and there are definitely aspects of Christianity and my beliefs that I struggle with. In my previous church they were fantastic and very happy to have debate and discussion and answer my questions. I'm now living abroad and the churches here are rather more fundamentalist and I find it much more difficult to engage with.
I haven't read the whole thread but my understanding of the question above is that God gave humans free will, much suffering is caused by the choices of humans - I assume if there was no option to choose an alternative path (one of wrong in some way - towards the devil if you like) there would be no free will. Someone with better theological knowledge may well be along to correct me.
Interestingly thinking back to the OP I only discovered that my boss was also a Christian when I met his family at church and we would never openly 'declare' it at work for fear of opinions much like those of the OP - primarily from other expats. However, the in the country where I work we have a mix of various religions including Muslims, Christians and Buddhists all openly practicing and all quite able to do their jobs as scientists and regard each other with respect. It's a shame that in the UK having faith is seen by some people as being in some way a bit stupid.

BertrandRussell · 23/09/2015 06:44

If you apply the scientific method to the existence or otherwise of God,then surely the very best you can come up with is "not proven"? I think that's why I find it a bit difficult to get my head round the idea of people who work in science believing. They would have to think of God in a completely different way to the way they think about absolutely everything else.......

BertrandRussell · 23/09/2015 06:46

"It's mind-blowingly improbable, coincidence and fluke really stretch the bounds of credibility. A gap which faith fills very nicely."

But there isn't a mind blowingly improbable coincidence.........

Abraid2 · 23/09/2015 06:59

All the suffering in this world is supposed to be the work of the devil, we're told.

The Catholics I know would say that much of the suffering is caused through human sin, wars, hunger, etc, rather than the devil.

Mehitabel6 · 23/09/2015 07:35

Lots of scientists have a faith- I can't see why they are different to anyone else. Faith has nothing to do with proving anything. I wouldn't want there to be 'proof' - I prefer free choice. Those who are very literal and have to 'see' everything with the 't's crossed and the i's dotted' are never going to have faith- does it matter?

Alfieisnoisy · 23/09/2015 07:36

The Pope has a degree in Industrial Chemistry (or something like that).

The Vicar of Baghdad (Canon Andrew White) is a doctor of medicine and a qualified anaesthetist.

Plenty of science going on with both of those and not causing issues with faith.

Alfieisnoisy · 23/09/2015 07:37

Wars etc are the work of humans who sin, they are not the work of the devil.

Only celery is the work of the devil

Mehitabel6 · 23/09/2015 07:43

I like celery!
Thankfully we are all different- even scientists don't have to be pigeonholed into what other people think they should think.

Mehitabel6 · 23/09/2015 07:47

Far too many people go around thinking 'I think such and such and I am right- everyone else is stupid if they don't agree'! ( or even worse that they are ignorant and just need 'educating' to 'see the light'!)
I find it all very odd. I can't think why everyone isn't free to think differently and still be right for them.

hackmum · 23/09/2015 07:54

Boleh: "I haven't read the whole thread but my understanding of the question above is that God gave humans free will, much suffering is caused by the choices of humans - I assume if there was no option to choose an alternative path (one of wrong in some way - towards the devil if you like) there would be no free will."

Two questions that follow on from that:

If you believe in evolution, at what point do you think humans acquired free will? We know that we have common ancestors with the apes, and I'm guessing you don't think that modern apes have free will. So at some point between being unthinking animals and being thinking modern humans, we (according to Christians) acquired free will. When did that happen? Where was the cut-off point? Do you think God suddenly gave everyone free will where they didn't have it before? Or did it evolve gradually over a period of generations?

We know that a lot of what we call bad behaviour - violence, for example - often happens in people with mental disorders, many of whom have had very traumatic childhoods. Many (most?) sexual abusers, for example were sexually abused as children. Given that this correlation exists, to what extent can we say that these people have free will?

Gwenhwyfar · 23/09/2015 07:56

"I agree there's a big vacuum at the heart of science – the things that are unknown or impossible to know –and so I can see how a scientist may turn to religion for those answers instead – but to me the more fitting "sciency" response is to say "I don't know, and I'm prepared not to know". To be religious you have to make a leap from "I don't know because the evidence isn't there" to "I'll just believe what this book says because lots of other people do / it's the tradition I was raised in" and I can't get my head round that."

I don't think scientists are using religion to plug in the gaps of science, they are used for different things. Science is for the 'how' and religion is for the 'why'.

Lweji · 23/09/2015 07:57

how, if at all, does catholicism inform your work in evolution?

It doesn't directly. But it doesn't tell me that God created things directly. The Genesis is a representation of how things start from less to more complicated.
I have developed sort of my own theory for what we call the soul. For me the human brain developed to such an extent that conceives of something else beyond what we can see. It searches for explanations. When we have to explanations it searches for a higher force.

I don't see that the higher force would have to have any hand on how we developed as humans but development of a religious brain is probably inevitable as our curiosity increases and our imagination too.

Religion for me is how we develop a relationship with that force, how we try to understand it.
As a Christian the biggest gap is Christ himself. I can't explain it and won't try to, but what he taught makes more than perfect sense to me and certainly one of the best ways to counteract our egotistical and violent nature. (Not the devil, btw, we all have some "evil" or are capable of it and we choose what we do)

As a note I find it curious that someone I know who became atheist believes that homeopathy works. That, I'd say, requires compartmentalization.

Anyway, religion as I practice it doesn't affect the science I do and could never follow one that simply ignores science.

Gwenhwyfar · 23/09/2015 07:58

Sorry, I seem to have posted the same as Sushi - should have read before posting.

catsrus · 23/09/2015 08:00

All the suffering in this world is supposed to be the work of the devil, we're told. OK, but if the Christian God is omnipotent and omniscient, as we're also told, then the devil must operate with God's approval. How else?

In classical theology this problem is called theodicy - the problem of evil - libraries of books have be written trying to reconcile these two things. For me they are not a problem as I don't believe in the devil and have a Process theology view of omnipotence (you're going to have to read the thread to get the links B&W. This thread reminds me of a recent conversation with my daughter who is practically vegan. How frustrating it is for her when people demand she justifies her dietary choices and argue against positions she doesn't hold .

Some forms of unreflective fundamentalist religious belief are at odds with modern science - of course they are - but they are generally at odds with modern society full stop. Other forms of religious faith are post enlightenment, reflective, open, engaged. they have arisen within modernity and are not stuck in the Middle Ages - though there were a few medieval writers with surprisingly modern ideas ....

The original OP was BU to assume that her colleague held an unreflective religious position.

Lweji · 23/09/2015 08:02

"I'll just believe what this book says because lots of other people do / it's the tradition I was raised in"

As a scientist and a reasonably intelligent person, I know the books are written by people, have contradictions and represent perceptions of those who told the stories and those who wrote them.
It is silly to read them as a science book. Which must also be read with that frame of mind. There are enough areas where scientists disagree from each other and are limited by their own preferences and perceptions.

InimitableJeeves · 23/09/2015 08:03

Faith is that, its an emotional, gut response. It has nothing to do with logic, reason or understanding.

Is it? And is that true in any other context? If I say, for instance, that I have faith in my DH's truthfulness and loyalty, is that an emotional gut response or is it based on my understanding of him and logical, reasoning interpretation of the evidence of his truthfulness and loyalty to date? If I say that I have faith in my doctor, is that an emotional gut response or based on my experience of him as a good doctor? If I have faith in my friends, is that an emotional gut response or based on my knowledge of them as good people?

catsrus · 23/09/2015 08:06

and I'm guessing you don't think that modern apes have free will interesting - I'm more inclined towards supporting the Great Ape project en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Ape_Project and do think that animals have free will, so particularly apes. They clearly have defined personality, which to my mind is very much related to my understanding of 'soul'

Mehitabel6 · 23/09/2015 08:06

That is a different sort of faith- you know your DH, friends and doctor.

Lweji · 23/09/2015 08:10

If you believe in evolution, at what point do you think humans acquired free will? We know that we have common ancestors with the apes, and I'm guessing you don't think that modern apes have free will.

You are making several wrong guesses there.
First I don't think we have complete free will. We are still quite a lot driven by our biology - see the urge some women have to have babies
Then, we ARE apes.
And other apes aren't by any means unthinking. If you read about apes you'll see that they are not that different from us, they just don't have the technical brain and are not as intelligent and certainly don't have opposable thumbs. The differences are basically quantitative.
The main qualitative difference is in us having the capacity for religion.

M0rven · 23/09/2015 08:15

If you think that everything in " science " has been proven, then you've obviously not studied any science beyond A level .

It's littered with " because we know what X acts like this and y acts Like this, we will assume that Z behaves in the same way " . And " this explanation is a good fit for our existing knowledge as we understand it" .