to think that a youth club residential should not let a group a girls exclude one member like this?

[anauntiewhoisannoyed]

Over the summer, DNiece (aged 14) went on a residential trip away with some members of her youth club, all roughly her age. The group comprised three boys, five girls, one male leader and one female leader. They stayed in a cabin which had four rooms, each with four beds in. This is how they slept:

In Room 1: all three boys and the male leader.
In Room 2: all of the four other girls.
In Room 3: DNiece and the female leader.

DNiece came back extremely upset at having been excluded by the other four girls, who she says ‘ran straight to the room so they could all get in first’ – she says she’d begged the leaders to let her put another mattress on the floor, but had been told she couldn’t. I don’t know whether the other four were purposely trying to exclude her, or were simply so thoughtless that they didn’t realise how upset DNiece would be.

DNiece has no issues or SNs which would require anyone to think she should be put in a room alone with a leader. AIBU to think that they should have split the girls up so that two or three of them were sharing with the female leader?

also it would have been unacceptable for the different sex leadrs to room share too, can you imagine male and female teachers in the same room at PGL or similar! No way! It does not matter if they were OK with doing it, their partners/spouses were ok about it, and they respeted each others privacy. Its just not on.

order I sincerely hope not! I have church experience of safeguarding regs and no way would this be allowed in my denomination.

Very badly managed IMO. The camp leaders should never have done that. They need to be totally up to speed on child protection and it sounds like they aren't at all.

another thing ....if they are this lax about something as basic and obvious as safeguarding, how are they on everything else? How up to date is their first aid training? what about their risk assessment and group insurance?

Another Guider (and secondary teacher) here who is horrified at this. Those sleeping arrangements violate every safeguarding principle known. You do need to bring this to the attention of whoever authorised the trip and ensure leaders are getting the proper safeguarding training. As others on the thread have said, we will not even allow 18 year olds to share with 17 year olds on trips, let along an adult leader and a young person.
Your DN is not being unreasonable at all, and the leaders were certainly at fault with regard to her social exclusion during the trip, but the problem goes far deeper than that. You need to report this.

Yes, I'm probably thinking of the kind of fringe church I grew up in

Good god, I work in residential schools and can't seven set foot in a bedroom with a student. If we are doing lights out, we knock and often the kids will shout 'come in', but we can't.
Re: the beds, well, that was poor management too. The whole thing sounds appalling.

ALL youth groups should have regard to safeguarding.
There is no way in the world this arrangement should have happened like it has.
Your DN's parent(s) should be talking to whoever has organised it and really making them think about what they are doing.

Nothing to do with your DN feeling left out, and everything to do with Leaders not putting themselves in a position where they can be accused of anything, and, indeed, your DN in particular being put in a vulnerable position herself.

What on earth were the leaders thinking with those arrangements??

I would have been daft enough the male and female leader sharing, but if they had to go to that venue (which wasn't at all suitable for their group) then it should have been - Boys Room, 3 Girls Room, 2 Girls Room, Leaders room.

The leader sharing with the boys was unacceptable, the lone leader sharing the room with a lone child was beyond ridiculous.

Some adults forget that the safeguarding rules are also to protect them. She would have had NO back up if the child she shared with had said anything against her.

The leaders sound unexperienced and unsafe given all the things you've mentioned. Allowing one child to be excluded and having no grasp of safeguarding needs flagged up to people senior to them imo.

Yes, it was a church group. Hence the complete inconceivability of male and female leaders sharing the 4th room.

The more I think about this the more I think your DN's parents need to say something. I'm well aware of the amount of work that goes into these trips and it's great that people have given up their time, but this is really important and bigger than hurting the leaders' feelings or causing issues in the Church.

It might also help your DN to know that people are taking this seriously.

I hope she can find another group where she's a bit happier. Venture Scouts or Rangers might be worth trying?

But it should also have been inconceivable they were not following the Church's Safeguarding Policy
Your dn's parent(s) MUST go to the Leadership of the Church and tell them / question them about how this could have happened, and ask what they are doing to ensure any future trips are properly planned and executed.

fastdaytears - Ventures haven't existed for a long time - 14 yr olds now go to Explorers.

I am an Army Cadet instructor and firstly, there is no way adults and children would be allowed to share. We would have probably put all the girls in one room, all the lads in the other and the male and female in their own room.

I am at inconceivability two adults of opposite gender sharing a room but it being ok for a young person to share with a leader!

Sorry Back I always get that wrong!

OP don't suggest your DN goes back in time to venture scouts- explorers will be much easier to find.

I wouldn't let my child go to this youth group until they do some basic child protection training.

Do they have DBS? When did they last have "Safeguarding training"? Who is the Church "Safeguarding officer"?

I would report this set up to the Safeguarding officer; and if there is not one for the Church to the local Children's services.

It is highly unsafe for all concerned.

I have passed this thread to DSIL. We'll speak to the safeguarding people of the denomination involved.

Surely sleeping arrangements were discussed before, with parents.

I wouldn't have let dd go away without knowing where and with who she was sleeping with.

Did they expect the room to sleep 5 instead of 4?

Sounds really badly organised. But they were right not to put a mattress on the floor.

The group is a small and very amateur community set-up

Amateur in every sense. Outrageous.

was this a church from one of the main denominations (CofE, catholic, baptist, methodist, salvation army) or an independent one?

If it is one of the main churches (one of the above I am heavily involved in safeguarding issues both in my own church and across our area) then I am absolutely astounded.

Even if the parents had given written permission for the DC to share room with adult it would still not have been ok.

goes against all the basics. we are not even allowed to provide a lift home with a singe child/adult in the car! If a child tries to approach one of us when we are alone, eg to disclose something or ask for help, we have to do all the right things - leave a door open, alert someone by text/mobile phone that a private conversation is taking place, make notes of the conversation, report to senior level afterwards.
we are not even allowed to text DC or have them on our fb friends.

How can people be so stupid. Do they not see all the scandals in the media?

And yes, before someone else says it, it is well known that unsavoury people are attracted to churches where voluteering with youth is easy and there is an atmosphere of trust and everyone being one big family. That does not mean common sense goes out the window. Are these leaders even DBS checked?

Yes, as with everyone else when I first read your thread my thoughts weren't about them excluding your DN but "what the fuck was an adult doing sharing a room with a child, on their own?!" I am genuinely about this.

They have put your DN and the leader in a very vulnerable position. I would be furious if this was my DD.

Like PP I wonder what other basics they are getting wrong.

The fact that the group is a small group and amateur (does that mean everyone is volunteers?) doesn't mean they can cut corners. They still have to follow the rules and regulations for the safety of the children and the adults.

It was actually really bad practise going away with only two adults as well, assuming there were no instructors or anything also around. The worst accident I've ever dealt with at the kids group was one of the adults!

Are the leaders who went on this trip young by any chance? It doesn't excuse it, but an experienced hand would have at least ensured they were sharing with two children to give an element of protection to them rather than being alone with a child.

The leaders need a very, very sharp reminder that you don't need anything to actually happen to lose your career working with children. It's very much an area where 'no smoke without fire' and 'not taking a chance' occurs so putting yourself in stupid situations without thinking can be costly.

Is this a regular trip? It's also very poor practise if this is common with their group, because lax safeguarding can attract unsavoury types to groups.

Also - the excluding of your niece was wrong as well. Experience leaders should never have a allowed it.

If it was your SIL i wouldn't be sending my kids to this group again until they do some basic training in working with children because these leaders sound utterly inept.

Re "letting it go": I know, I know. All I want though is to be able to reassure DNiece, who is still upset.
I would be worried that she is still upset about and why.