Being devil's advocate - should there be a cap on the number of children a family can claim benefit for?

[ReallyTired]

Flame throwers ready - play nicely everyone.

I feel uncomfortable about further cuts to the support that families already recieve. Young families have suffered enough. It would be interesting know how other developed countries help their young people.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-31743031

There are plenty of people who think we don't have room for people fleeing for their lives from Islamic State. If Britain is full up then surely we should be discouraging people from having any lots of children. I think the labour policy of being more generous to families with child tax credits, pregnancy health grant, generous childcare subsidy has increased the birth rate. Maybe there is an arguement for discouraging people from having more children. I don't know. Many migrants are intelligent, hard working and frankly more of an asset to the country than many native born British people.

However capping child benefit combined with the loss of child tax credits will plunge families into poverty. Children have no choice in being born and should not be punished for the lack of responsiblity of their parents.
The child benefit/ child tax credit system is broke and does not help to allievate poverty.

I'm torn. On one hand I think the cap is made fairer by the fact that they've post-dated it so nobody can be pregnant without that knowledge. On the other, people do have unplanned pregnancies and I don't think abortion should be seen as a way of dealing with it - it should be a choice.

I also think that the minority of parents who choose to have many children to avoid work, etc., will do so no matter how much it sends their children into poverty.

Yes I think there should be a cap.

Yes there should be a cap. For some unskilled families, their only route to more money is to have more children (via the increased benefits it brings). I'd like benefits stopped after two children. And taking that even further (the eugenics brigade will be screaming blue murder) - how about rewarding childlessness for those on low incomes? £1000 per year to not procreate?

So what about refugees coming in ( in the future) with families larger than what the cap allows?

So if it's capped at 2 children, a refugee family coming in only gets benefit for the first 2?

Yes can't feed them don't breed them

People should be responsible for their choices and not rely on others to subsidise their choices.

No, it will just increase the number of children who live in poverty.

Yes I do think there should be a cap. There is not a bottomless pit of money for the state to pay for people's "mistakes".

I do think sterilisation (if that's what it's still called) should be easier to get though. GP said I couldn't because I only had one child and I was still too young (was a while ago though).

Britain isn't full up. It is only claimed to be full up by people who don't want to accept refugees. Personally, I feel that the long term implications of accepting refugees haven't been thought through, but they need help now, so we can't refuse them.

I feel that the cuts to tax credits coming in 2016 are too severe too quickly, if they really had to do it, it could be done gradually over the next five years (which is what they are doing with raising wages). The cuts are penalising people for having a job. And how do you get out of it? Earn more? But then you lose more. You would need to find enough more money to lift you out of tax credits altogether, and if that was a viable option, people would already be doing it.

The cap on the number of children coming in 2017, I am not sure how I feel about that. I think that some people do need to take more responsibility for the choices they make in life, but equally, it feels like larger families will become a luxury for the rich, and it could be the thin end of the wedge regarding who can afford to have children. Also the fact that it feels like a cap on the amount of children women can have, while the NR fathers can swan off and start again with a new woman.

Yes, we should starve 3rd and subsequent children.

Actually this rule could trap families in benefits for longer - get a job, lose it and go back on bens and your claim is new: you can only claim for first 2 kids. Safer not to risk taking the job.

I think the children are affected by the caps than anyone else tbh. I also think abortion rates will get higher if people have an unplanned baby which many do through failed contraception. I don't think this is a good thing! I would rather more people get benefits than abortions personally. I also think the people having kids just for the benefits are a minority.

I think there are very few people who have children purely for the money, but there are a great many people who choose to have wanted children safe in the knowledge that the benefits system will pay for them.

Objectively speaking, can anyone really justify someone choosing to have five or six children they can't afford to support themselves? I suspect not.

In an ideal world SS would be able to step in with food/clothing vouchers to help those children who will be born regardless, but this is unlikely to happen and sadly I suspect even more children will go hungry.

I dunno what the answer is.

I don't think that a family should have to choose between abortion and extreme poverty. Ironically many right wing extremists are anti abortion and would suggest that excess children are put up for adoption.

"People should be responsible for their choices and not rely on others to subsidise their choices."

Shit happens. Sometimes people get made redunant or become disabled. I don't think that the joy of having children should be restricted to the rich. No child has ever asked to be born.

"So what about refugees coming in ( in the future) with families larger than what the cap allows?"

I have no idea. Its a good question. Certainly it would cause (understandable) representment if we have a benefits cap for white british families and not for refugee families.

How do we have a compassionate welfare system that also encourages a bit of responsiblity? How do you we support children whatever their background without encouraging their parents to be workshy and breed like rabbits? I would like to see the extension of free school meals to more children and possibly free breakfast. Maybe more help with the costs of school uniform for low income families.

I do not want children half starved and dressed in rags because their parents have no money. Children deserve better welfare standards than some tinpot third world country.

I echo that- I don't see a solution. It will be children that suffer, but selfish parenting is not limited to those on benefits/extremely low incomes.
Refugees is a separate issue, those children are already born.
In many countries however many children you have, if you're poor, they suffer. Surely our society can do better than that?

"Objectively speaking, can anyone really justify someone choosing to have five or six children they can't afford to support themselves? I suspect not."

I know someone who does not use contraception for religious reasons. She has nine children! There are a small minority of christians, muslims and jews who believe that contraception is a sin.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quiverfull

"I don't think that a family should have to choose between abortion and extreme poverty. "

they could choose not to get pregnant in the first place instead

In a word no.
I don't know anyone who 'breeds' for the money, obviously there are some people that do. But to make poorer families have less children is wrong, what about cultural or religious factors whare some people don't believe in contraception? What about women who are subject to sexual violence and rape should they then be financially punished for being a victim? It's a can of worms I dont think anyone should make a career out of benefits but certainly most people shouldn't be punished. Especially when we live in a society that some people are in poverty and they work!

Here in Germany, CB actually increases (slightly) for the third child, and again for the fourth and subsequent. Part of the reason for this, I would suppose, is the state's constitutional objection to protect and support the family. There's also an understandable historically-based resistance to social engineering. Fees for state-subsidised childcare and semi-private schools (church schools and the like) also tend to be lower where there are dependant siblings in the family.
None of this seems to have done much to push up the German birthrate, which is about 1.6, I think?

argh, constitutional obligation, not objection

Yes, there should be.

Yes, I think there should be limits. If I can't afford something then I don't do it, simple as. I realise that people's circumstances can change but there are far too many people having children that they simply can't afford and expecting the state to pay for them.

Yes, I think it should be capped at 2 children but not applied retrospectively. Exemptions for multiple births should be made.

Totally, although I agree with the 'can't feed don't breed' statement, I probably wouldn't have worded it exactly like that

My goodness. We have all got out judgey pants well and truly hoisted on today haven't we. I hate closed minded attitudes.
The children don't ask to be born, do they.
If you can't feed them don't breed them, people love saying that don't they. Well if they've worked before they bred them .any money they claim is their money paid for by their taxes, or what about the taxes the child's grand parents aunts and uncles have paid into the pot.
No people shouldn't have to choose between abortion and extreme poverty, they shouldn't get pregnant in the first place. Yes well this is the real world. These things happen. Contraception can fail, even the most careful can have an accident. Plus pregnancy lasts the best part of a year a lot can happen in that time. You could be very affluent at the start of your pregnancy and by the end you could be in dire poverty. That's how fast life can change. Like it says in the song ironic "Life has a funny way of sneaking up on you when everything's okay, and everything's going right". If no one got pregnant in case they could not afford it then the world would come to a halt. These children are going to be our future nurses doctors police ect, and one day looking after in our old age.
I thought they were capping tax credits at 2 children anyway for any children born after April 2017. It was announced on 8 July when they did their budget. I think it's a date bet to say there is going to a massive baby boom between April 2016 and 2017 for those with 2 children wanting 3.