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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think an English teacher should know the correct pronunciation of Glamis?

332 replies

susannahmoodie · 16/09/2015 06:15

As in Thane of......?

Or is it now ok to say "glam-mis"??

OP posts:
NoMoreRenting · 16/09/2015 10:30

Bert, I'm not Scottish (dh is) but I'm guessing just as it sounds as Elsinore although don't the Danish pronounce it, Helsinoa or similar.
I can't even remember what the castle is really called although the town is actually Elsinore, is it not?
I'm off to google as my brain seems unable to retain anything these days.

JeffreysMummyIsCross · 16/09/2015 10:31

To really set the cat amongst the pigeons:

The character, Jaques in As You Like It :

Pronounced as in the French name, or "Jay-Kweez"?

Knock yourselves out. The correct answer (to be adjudicated by a group of top scholars at the Shakespeare Institute) is the award of a new "Bestest Russell Group English Degree" Mumsnet emoticon, only to be used by the victor Grin.

BertrandRussell · 16/09/2015 10:33

Jay-kweez. Obvs.

NoMoreRenting · 16/09/2015 10:33

Kronborg Castle

JeanneDeMontbaston · 16/09/2015 10:34

Sorry, I skipped to the end. I'm bad. But, jeeves:

The suggestion that Glamis is an obscure name in English literature is bizarre. Macbeth is one of Shakespeare's most important plays and Glamis is one of the name character's titles - the fact that he is Thane of Glamis, becomes Thane of Cawdor and it is predicted that he will become King is its central theme.

That is not a 'theme'. I'd be more worried by someone who can't distinguish a plot point and a theme.

If you are interested enough in English to do an English degree and become an English teacher where your job is to teach and inspire young people, including in relation to our greatest playwright

Some of us have gone to university post-1880, and no longer accept the 'our greatest playwright' line, as it's very very dated.

Also, if you have learnt anything about Shakespeare you should be aware of metre and that "Glammis" simply can't work.

If you have learned anything about Shakespeare, you should be aware that his metre is extremely slipshod in a lot of places and an extra unstressed syllable is neither here nor there.

Anyway. I don't see how it matters. It's not in any way important to understanding the play (not like the thread a PP mentioned where someone thought P&P was Victorian). It's just a slip. Shakespeare made loads of them.

JeanneDeMontbaston · 16/09/2015 10:35

jeffreys - jakes, to pun on toilet.

BertrandRussell · 16/09/2015 10:35

Oh, sorry, nomorerenting. I was only being a smartarse about your typo.Blush

NoMoreRenting · 16/09/2015 10:40

It's ok! I'm not even sure what are typos and what is baby brain at the moment. I need sleep.

JeffreysMummyIsCross · 16/09/2015 10:41

Some of us have gone to university post-1880, and no longer accept the 'our greatest playwright' line, as it's very very dated.

This. Even the artistic director of the RSC has said that he doesn't really understand why it's Shakespeare, rather than Ben Jonson that holds this exalted position.

Much of it has to do with the eighteenth-century "rediscovery" and elevation of Shakespeare for nationalistic purposes.

JeanneDeMontbaston · 16/09/2015 10:42

S'true. Chaucer too.

I love Shakespeare and don't love Chaucer, but both of them are jumped on for nationalistic reasons like crazy. Besides, it's a bit poor, isn't it, to teach a canon of dead white men and not even question it, isn't it?

We did Duchess of Malfi for A Level because my teacher was lovely. Smile

I have no idea how the Italian in that is meant to be said, either.

JeanneDeMontbaston · 16/09/2015 10:43

Double 'isn't it'. I should really have a coffee.

holly, I like the point about the two syllables in the original.

QuiteIrregular · 16/09/2015 10:44

Sod it, got to the end of the thread only to find that bog and jeanne made exactly the point I had in mind - in those passages quoted above neither a single syllable nor a two-syllable trochee makes regular metrical sense.

Studying Shakespeare does not consist of remembering the notes to the text - that's the sort of literary pub quizzery which we spend our time trying to move first-year students on from.

Also metre doesn't consist of fitting words exactly into a fixed beat. One of the most characteristic features of the iambic pentameter in Shakespeare's sonnets, for example, is the reversal of a foot at the beginning:

DUM-di-di-DUM-di-DUM-di-DUM-di-DUM, so to speak

("Shall I compare thee to a summer's day" is a good example.)

A poet sets up a metre to work as a beat which can be felt or "heard" behind the lines, whether or not individual words or even whole lines fit into it. Poetry which simply reproduces the set rhythm is bad poetry, and sounds unbelievably tedious and banal, like a nursery-rhyme. So there's no way of determining that an individual word "should" be spoken in a aprticular way.

QuiteIrregular · 16/09/2015 10:46

(Loving Jeffrey's letting of the cat amongst the pigeons. If only because I have heard that discussion happening over drinks in the Shakespeare Institue.)

JeanneDeMontbaston · 16/09/2015 10:46

Tcha.

You must be one of these idiots from an ex-poly, QI.

(Actually, I really like that explanation of metre, do you mind if I plagiarise use it and quote you? I'm trying to get mine to realise it's not scary to suggest a line might be irregular.)

ComposHatComesBack · 16/09/2015 10:50

You must be one of these idiots from an ex-poly

I went to the University of Lunn (formerly Lunn Poly).

Roseformeplease · 16/09/2015 10:52

But, while we might pronounce it Jay-tweez, it was also a pun on Jakes (a slang name for the toilet).

HTH

SacredHeart · 16/09/2015 11:07

My dh still laughs and my first attempt to pronounce uttoxeter!

"Uh-toh, uh-toh-icks, uh-toh-icks-et-errr?"

Also a local store make a very nice steak and ale pie with belvoir ale, aptly named "Belvoir pie" (tee hee hee)

TwmSionCati · 16/09/2015 11:09

you tocks itta?

SacredHeart · 16/09/2015 11:11

Bang on twm, I honestly felt like I was a 5 year old. Break it down and sound it out.Grin

QuiteIrregular · 16/09/2015 11:16

Of course, jeanne, feel free. You prob already know this one, but Hamburger's volume in the New Critical Idiom series, "Metre, Rhythm, Verse Form" is pretty good on introducing undergrads to the idea that metre is essentially an abstraction, whilst also helping them work with it. I think it's him who damns Browning for his over-regularity in the lyrics, by (if memory serves) quoting a few stanzas of Love Among The Ruins and simply commenting "Anyone for tennis?"

In one way I guess we're lucky to be teaching this generation, as they're much more used to organised spoken rhythm being variable and flexible in popular music - anyone who grew up with Missy Elliott, Nas, Eminem, Dizzee Rascal, Kanye and Roots Manuva to listen to instinctively knows that variation is the essence of metre - they'd never dream of assumng that a rapper drops every stress (or every word) only on the beat.

(My first lecture on the first-year course usually ends up wasting a lot of time demonstrating how "Call Me Maybe" organises itself around four-syllable trochaic riffs, so the more that pattern appears, the closer we are to the chorus. Or how "Milkshake" is entirely metrical without the caesurae in each line, but also perfectly metrical with them.)

JeanneDeMontbaston · 16/09/2015 11:21

Nope, don't know it - thank you!

I used to go to lectures by Eric Griffiths, who would remark that Shakespeare thought of ten as a number between 9 and 14. It stuck in my mind. Smile

I like your point about rap, though I'm not sure I can pull it off! My difficulty is they're so used to the idea that 'metre' means 'iambic pentameter', it is hard to explain a metrical system that doesn't care how many unstressed syllables there are, and only counts the stresses. But I suspect Shakespeare knew it perfectly well.

Oakmaiden · 16/09/2015 11:26

*"Hey - that's weird - how come that really famous line has 11 syllables when every other line in the play only has 10. I wonder if there's something odd about the pronounciation".

Surely English teacher should know about metre and wonder... 'Thane of Glamis, and Cawdor too' (IIRC) wouldn't go dum-di-dum-di-dum-di-dum with 2 syllables in Glamis. You have no idea how little my phone liked that!

"Stay, you imperfect speakers, tell me more:
By Sinel's death I know I am thane of Glamis;
But how of Cawdor? the thane of Cawdor lives,
A prosperous gentleman; and to be king"

"Glamis thou art, and Cawdor; and shalt be
What thou art promised: yet do I fear thy nature;
It is too full o' the milk of human kindness
To catch the nearest way: thou wouldst be great;"

"The illness should attend it: what thou wouldst highly,
That wouldst thou holily; wouldst not play false,
And yet wouldst wrongly win: thou'ldst have, great Glamis,
That which cries 'Thus thou must do, if thou have it;
And that which rather thou dost fear to do"*

Loving the suggestions that the entire play is written in iambic pentameter. How boring would that be?

If you actually count the syllables in the lines, they are all over the pace, and Shakespeare used all sorts of different feet - not just iambs. So you can never really rely on the meter to help you scan the later plays...

Or the rhyme. I remember the struggles I faced at the age of 14 and playing Puck, with the lines:

When in that moment, so it came to pass, (which I only ever pronounced "parse")
Titania waked and straightway loved an ass.

Permanentlyexhausted · 16/09/2015 11:26

I'm sure there are plenty of Scottish teachers who can't pronounce English place names properly.

Grin

[purposefully misses the point of the thread]

ComposHatComesBack · 16/09/2015 11:28

sacred on a Midlands theme try 'Caldmore' in Walsall. Pronounced Kar-ma.

This played an important role in catching the so called A34 murderer Raymond Morris during the late 60s. When the suspect stopped and asked a group of kids for directions to 'Kar-ma' they knew they were looking for a local man.

QuiteIrregular · 16/09/2015 11:29

Ha! Love that line from Griffiths!

And your last paragraph speaks to a worrying feeling I have the older I get: that Gerard Manley Hopkins talked a lot of sense... genuflects, reads Dons Scotus, opines on Anglo-Saxon metre, has intense relationship with the colour blue

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