to get a bit irritated with all the virtue signalling on MN

[OTheHugeManatee]

Virtue signalling = going on really loudly about how much you hate something that's considered right-on to hate (eg UKIP, the Daily Mail) in order to tell the world how kind, compassionate and generally virtuous you are.

I see it all the time on MN. It's the moral equivalent of stealth boasting. Instead of saying 'Look at how much more kind and compassionate I am than most other people' virtue signallers claim really loudly to hate something 'bad', thereby hinting at their superior niceness rather than bragging about it out loud.

As well as being thoroughly in bad faith it creates a climate where sometimes quite difficult and nuanced issues can't be discussed, because any attempt to weigh different sides is drowned out by people using that issue to signal their own virtue.

I'm averagely right-on, averagely selfish/kind/whatever, generally fairly normal I suppose in my ethical views. But I find all this posturing hypocritical and very irritating. The internet seems to be making it worse. AIBU to wish it would stop?

I mean, being clever might be a virtue you would like to signal for yourself or for People Who Agree With You. Understandably.

But you can hardly position that as a difference between the groups you describe.

Pausing How people see themselves and how others see them are often different. The virtues signalled by each group are based less in facts than in wishful thinking self-perception, so your quoting of statistics about education levels of the left and right is irrelevant. It's a fair point though that many lefties consider themselves better educated than their opponents, although I would say that this is more in respect of 'right-wing' as in social conservative than 'right-wing' as in fiscal liberal or libertarian, both of which more accurately describe the centre-right. I've deliberately tried to avoid strong social conservatism, as it appears on both sides and muddles things rather. But I suppose I should add 'better educated' to the 'lefty' list, as you say.

But inasmuch as you can deduce the virtues people signal from what they accuse their supposed opposites of being, and going by a PPs reference to the accusations chucked at lefties of being 'naive idiots', 'self-righteous', 'unrealistic' or 'no idea how the world actually works' I think it's fair to deduce that typical centre-right virtues being signalled might be 'pragmatic', 'worldly', 'better informed' (that might actually be more accurate than 'clever').

As I said, I struggled to summarise virtues signalled by people who think of themselves as right-wing and welcome others' perspective. Thanks for this - you're right that the centre-right virtue that gets signalled is not so much 'more clever' as 'better informed'. 'I'm more intelligent than you' is, as you say, arguably more likely to be one that gets chucked by lefties at social conservatives.

I think the point I was trying to make still stands though: the two lists are, in the main, not directly comparable. And from the point of view of being seen generally as a nice person, the lefty list is just much more desirable. This reflects a phenomenon that I'm not the first to comment on, which is that in mainstream political discourse the left has in the main defined the moral terms of the debate. I find this a really interesting asymmetry, as most of the self-identified right-wingers I know consider themselves to be very moral people, but their ethical perspective is muted in mainstream debate as it rests on different foundations to the one the mainstream has adopted.

And I've just realised I need to footnote that, as someone is bound to come along and say,

'How very dare you, OTheHuge's actual words were "From the perspective of the 'centre left', people who self-identify as right-wing are characterised as the opposite of the 'centre left' list".'

But unless she's claiming some sort of weird exceptionalism, the immediate corollary is "From the perspective of the 'centre right', people who self-identify as left-wing are characterised as the opposite of the 'centre right' list".'

I've spelt that out so that you can contradict me straightforwardly if you feel I've misrepresented you, OTheHuge.

(But then you'd be lumbered with explaining how the exceptionalism is supposed to work.)

X-post. Will read now.

Spot on OP
Thankfully MN is a bit more balanced nowadays, but whenever I see a "I hate the DM" post I see an overeducated not very bright poster desperate for valuation and to be included in the "club".The anithesis of what they want to signal really.

validation not valuation

Yes, I agree that you can deduce the virtues people believe they are signalling from what they accuse their supposed opposites of being. And vice versa.

But I'm not at all saying that "I'm more intelligent than you" is more likely to be one that gets chucked by lefties at social conservatives. "You must thick" is one of the world's universal putdowns across all social boundaries and IQs.

"You must be thick."

Hmm yes, perhaps 'you are an idiot, I am not' is in fact common to all political stances, at least from the moment when 'you are a poo head ner ner ner' stops being a knock-down argument.

^^ I fear there's actually an overlap with the poo-head calling...

Agree with everything you say op, although it's nowhere near as bad as it used to be. ( MN a lot more balanced these days )
& the 'I hate the daily mail' brigade come across as desperate to be accepted into some sort of club ?
Who cares if you're mother in law reads the daily mail & you're ashamed?
Absolutely no one.

I haven't read the entire thread, but I am really fed up with the Daily Mail comments. It's just a lazy and smug left-wing response to anyone who makes any suggestion that there might be some issue with the enormous UK welfare state.

Oh, also the Starbucks 'tax evasion' issue. That's nipping at the heels of the DM rebuttal.

I agree that a lot of people these days seem interested in 'branding' themselves. It's probably the logical outcome of social media.

I dont think it is particularly new Bottlecap, but i think it used to be more undercover a bit like a secret handshake

There was an OP a few weeks ago whose post was all about an argument she'd had with her dad about her doing two hours a week volunteering at the food bank. The dad had told her that people who used food banks were just lazy, workshy etc. The OP wanted to know whether she was BU to be shocked. She mentioned twice in the course of her post that she earned a six figure sum and "just wanted to give something back".

The thread rapidly descended into a fight between those who thought the OP was simultaneously showing off about her large salary and her virtuous volunteering at the food bank, and those who thought the first lot were sneering, unkind, nasty etc.

The whole thing was very funny - it made me laugh anyway. Perhaps you had to be there.

Looking again at your lists, I think the most obvious virtue that specifically the right attributes to itself-only is "hard-working."

To the point it's a cliche: hard-working families, hard-working business owners, etc.

As you say, it's about self-perception and performance.

I see this on Facebook all the time (not so much here, though I agree it does happen). They're preaching to the converted too

YANBU. I would make a longer comment but I cba and you've said it all.

Totally agree OP. Sometimes Mumsnet is like a parody.

Does anyone else have a sneaking suspicion that someone is sitting in their office/home and shouting Bingo!

Thought of another attribute that often gets signalled as a virtue: wealth itself.

Signalled in the choice and frequency of new car, holiday, clothes, house... And signalled again by the owner advertising them.

But I'm not sure if that "virtue" corresponds to either of your groups, or a subgroup of one? Or whether it's entirely independent of your centre-left/centre-right definitions?

(I'm never sure exactly what people are defining as left or right wing, anyway.)

YY Pausing, but then there are the frequent accusations of stealth boasting that make you think twice about admitting to anything in your lifestyle that is nicer than living in a hole in the road and licking said road for sustenance.

Yy, WorktoLive.

And then of the posts that attract accusations of stealth boasting, some blatantly are just boasting, some blatantly aren't, and there's this huuuuge swathe in the middle where it's not clear (to me, at least).

Was the OP's motivation the making a statement of superiority, the seeking of approval, and performance?

Or were they just burbling about their lives blissfully unaware of other people's interpretations?

Interesting list OTheHugeManatee

I just at the right-wing virtue-signalling terms hard-working and wealth being treated as a virtue in itself being followed by a post that says "My son is left wing and a postman. He works fairly hard although not as hard as I do" -- says it all really!

I would add one more to your list for the Right that probably lies somewhere between pragmatism and worldliness, and could be used to self-identify by (a small portion of) the Right and would definitely be used to describe them by the Left: ruthlessness.

For clarity, I don't think all Conservative-leaning people would self-identify as ruthless at all, but a certain subset do - and treat it as a virtue to boot. Being perceived as "tough" and "dynamic" can also be interpreted as fuck you buddy, I got mine - aka naked self-interest. Which is, of course, quite vulgar.