to not understand why many Scots seem to want to leave the UK but keep the EU

[OTheHugeManatee]

It just doesn't make sense to me. I hear lots of Scots saying they want to leave the Union because they're fed up with being dictated to by a remote, corrupt and self-serving elite with little democratic accountability to the Scottish electorate.

The sentiment saddens me but I can understand it. What throws me though is that many of these Scots then say in the same breath that they want to retain membership of the EU. Why? If you're fed up with being dictated to from a remote, corrupt and self-serving elite with little democratic accountability to the Scottish electorate, why would you ditch the Westminster elite but keep the even more remote, more corrupt, more self-serving and less accountable and one in Brussels?

Because; history. Among other things.

I think very simple example why they want to be independent is that they would like to open their homes to refugees but they can't as Westminster governs this policy for the whole country.

Do you honestly believe that antimatter?

It seems to me that it's very convienent to hide behind that as an excuse as they know it will never be a reality- it's a perfect situation for Nicola Sturgeon.

Sorry, antimatter, but that's Sturgeon Spin for you.

She's in a win: win with this one. She can lament and alack and woe is me for a gold medal. She'll never be 'allowed' to act upon her sincerely held views.

That nasty MrC won't let her, nasty Englishman that he is!

antimatter I hadn't realised that last year's independence referendum was prompted by compassion for Syrian refugees.

Auld alliance ?

But you are missing the point of my post. "Why does Scotland want to leave the Union?" was done to death during the referendum last year. The question I asked was 'Why, if Scotland wants to leave the union so as to ensure its national sovereignty, does it still want to cling to the EU, an institution that usurps the sovereignty of its member nations in numerous ways that are analogous to the impositions of Westminster on Scotland?'.

If the aim is independence, it doesn't make sense to leave the UK but stay in the EU. If the aim is national sovereignty, Scotland can't have that within the EU as it stands. So it doesn't make sense to me.

MrsTerryPratchett, 'because history' is interesting; can you elaborate?

The Westminster government has far more influence in Scotland than Brussels does.

And the Scots might, not unreasonably, feel that they may benefit from some European measures which the UK government has opted out of on their behalf, like the working time directive.

I think the reality is Scottish independence actually just means breaking free of England- they know without a currency/ trade relations etc, they won't survive so staying part of the EU suits them.

It seems to me that it's very convienent to hide behind that as an excuse as they know it will never be a reality

800 volunteers, mainly in Scotland, signed up to host refugees in their home with this one charity....

www.thenational.scot/news/hundreds-offer-their-homes-to-accommodate-refugees.7310

Perhaps because they like being part of the European Union but want to get away from being governed directly by a political party that isn't compatible with Scottish values and political outlook?
It really doesn't seem that strange to me.

Auld Alliance I think most people know about the bloody and sad history between Scotland and England, don't they? Regardless of the fact that the smaller, poorer country in a set of two is generally pissed off.

There is undoubtedly a big chunk of pragmatism involved too. Difficult for a small country on the edge of Europe to go it alone without powerful friends, especially if a post-Union r-UK was determined to make things difficult.

Smaller country perpetually bullied by a larger country for centuries? (If I understand correctly). EU represents a new start with new allies.

I'd love to know if the UK vote 'leave', would there follow a swift Scottish referendum and wild the vote in Scotland be to remain. .

Bear I don't see why Scotland wouldn't survive as a genuinely independent nation. I watched the indyref debates with interest last year; I started out with a reflexive Unionist point of view, but came to the conclusion that the arguments for Scottish independence are broadly identical to the arguments for EU Brexit. And as I hold considered eurosceptic views, I couldn't very well object to Scots taking the same position with respect to the Union.

But I just don't see how, if they want to be independent and self-governing, they'd get rid of one supranational source of interference in their sovereignty, but want to hang onto another. I also think the idea that the EU has less influence on Scotland than Westminster might be muddled by the fact that EU regulations are generally enacted via Westminster. It's proved pretty much impossible to establish how much UK law actually originates in the EU (estimates vary from 15% to 80% depending on which drum you are banging) but it's a substantial amount of regulation that comes apparently from Westminster but actually not from Westminster at all.

Anyway, surely the principle of national sovereignty for Scotland is what's at stake here? Surely it can't be that Scots don't want to be told what to do by the English, but being told what to do by Belgians is OK?

ThroughThickAndThin On the subject of countries being bullied, did you watch the Troika in action in Greece earlier this year?

Actually, the latest polls are suggesting 51/49 to leave the EU v. 49/51 in England (or rUK, can't remember which...) - which shows that we're not desperate to be in the EU.

I didn't OP, worth watching?

800 volunteers, mainly in Scotland, signed up to host refugees in their home with this one charity....

Not quite true - that unbiased piece of loo roll aka The National states "Last night the programme, which once had around 50 people signed up, had almost 800 volunteers from around the UK"

The perception is that England is self-serving and doesn't care about the opinions/needs/feelings of the Scots. The EU is 'caring' towards the smaller nations, Europe is pro-things that a lot of Scots consider themselves pro-; education; history; culture. How much of that is pure fiction...

OP, I don't pretend to understand the economics/ politics as well as you do but I do think the underlying reason is it's much easier/safer to be part of a huge regime which you can pretty much live with and which will support you if it all goes wrong than being a tiny, tiny fish in a massive pool.

The fact that during the referendum there were no plans for a currency for an independent Scotland outside of keeping the pound or using the Euro proved that true independance was never on the agenda.

MrsTerry Who isn't pro education, history and culture?

Joking apart, I don't mean to rubbish or mock. I'm genuinely interested as to me it seems such a glaring inconsistency. I've argued myself, as a reflexive Unionist, into a position of considerable empathy with the Scottish independence cause as the gradual erosion of UK national sovereignty to the EU just seems scandalous to me. I'm also not sure why the EU debate always ends up being about money, when to my mind it's about autonomy.

To be fair, a lot of the Indyref debate ended up being about money too, where it sounded to me like lots of Scots were saying 'sod the money, we'll be OK, we just want to run stuff without others meddling'. Fair enough, I thought; that's how I feel about the EU (though there the economic benefits are themselves pretty debatable). But to reject UK meddling and embrace EU meddling? Just seems odd.

It is odd - which is why the polls show that it's so evenly split up here. Furthermore, the social survey (what was it called again??) showed that Scottish people are actually no different to the rUK in their behaviours and outlook. Who'd have thunk it?

SirChengin - the last poll I saw (sorry, I don't have the source) suggested support for the EU was much higher in Scotland than England. Others may be better informed than me though of course.

However the fact that social outlooks are pretty much the same between Scotland and rUK (and I thought Scotland took pride in being much more to the left politically, and different in other ways, or is that not so?) doesn't alter the fact that being pro-EU is less logical if you are Scottish and pro-independence than it does if you live elsewhere and don't give a dog's arse either way. Hence my curiosity on the subject.

Also, can I ask: are pro-independence folks in Scotland generally also eurosceptic?