to not understand why many Scots seem to want to leave the UK but keep the EU

[OTheHugeManatee]

It just doesn't make sense to me. I hear lots of Scots saying they want to leave the Union because they're fed up with being dictated to by a remote, corrupt and self-serving elite with little democratic accountability to the Scottish electorate.

The sentiment saddens me but I can understand it. What throws me though is that many of these Scots then say in the same breath that they want to retain membership of the EU. Why? If you're fed up with being dictated to from a remote, corrupt and self-serving elite with little democratic accountability to the Scottish electorate, why would you ditch the Westminster elite but keep the even more remote, more corrupt, more self-serving and less accountable and one in Brussels?

I think people view the EU as vaguely positive - increased trade, farm subsidy, human rights. And parts of Scotland are physically closer to mainland Europe than England. E.g. if I travel for work, it often makes more sense to fly via Amsterdam than London. Certainly in the oil and gas industry, people will be travelling back and forth to e.g. the Netherlands a lot more than to England. Though that is probably less true in the central belt.

Whereas the political consensus in England is perceived to be generally negative - bed room tax, hammering the disabled, privatisation, etc.

The EU doesn't have a big enough visible impact on day to day life for most people to care enough to want to change things. And if the tories weren't in power, I doubt support for independence would be so high either.

Doesn't Scotland get a load of grants from the EU? I thought that was why.

OP, I truly believe you are over complicating the issue- it really is just a case of:-

Anything to do with England - Bad

Any other alternative- better.

I never really understood the hysteria over EU membership for an independent Scotland. Anyone in Scotland who is currently British could have retained their British nationality/passport so they would automatically be EU citizens (unless and until rUK decided to leave the EU). So you'd have a non-EU country already compliant with EU laws with 5 million EU citizens living in it. I don't think the EU would have put barriers in the way of a swift return to the EU regardless of what the lawyers were saying.

I guess they would rather be told what to do by Brussels than by London.

I never really understood the hysteria over EU membership for an independent Scotland. Anyone in Scotland who is currently British could have retained their British nationality/passport so they would automatically be EU citizens

And that completly demonstrates to me the propaganda that surrounded the devolution vote - how exactly would 'being part of Britain' still be valid if Scotland had voted for independence?

It's the nationalist paradox and was never properly answered by the Yes campaign during the referendum.

I think it's the perception that the rest of the EU is slightly more left-wing than the current Westminster gov - and the fear is that if rUK were to break away from the EU, worker's rights would become watered down a hell of a lot more than they are at the moment (I think this is a valid sentiment tbh). Also being a member of a supra-national club feels a bit more 'stable' in this day and age than going it alone as a breakaway nation relying solely on North Sea Oil.

I think it's the perception that the rest of the EU is slightly more left-wing than the current Westminster gov

LOL

I think bear's post above hits the nail on the head. Plus, a younger electorate (assuming you count the opinions of the 16-17 year olds who I believe voted overwhelmingly for independence in the Scottish referendum) tends to be more pro EU.

There is undoubted a perception that EU politics is left of the UK - I am not sure this is really true in Brussels, but the rise of high-profile left wing parties in Greece and Spain may give people this impression, and it's probably fair to say that even Germany's government is in many practical ways to the left of both major English parties. I don't know why you lol-ed at that, OP, but it makes it look like you're not really interested in a discussion.

I lolled because economically speaking, the EU is so right-wing it makes Maggie Thatcher look like Jeremy Corbyn.

I think there are numerous European nations that are to the left of the UK under Cameron, but we're talking here about the EU, not European nations. The EU is not left-wing, except in the sense of being dirigiste.

I think it's quite hard to characterise the EU as right or left at least by UK definitions, as some legislation is rather left-leaning (in the sense that it would broadly be supported by parties of the left), such as the working time directive, while other legislation is broadly right-leaning, such as competition policy.

Nevertheless I think that outside the "Corbyn wing" on the left I think most people in the UK perceive EU politics as being left of the UK, whether this is true or not. Tory eurosceptics and kippers certainly don't want to leave the EU because it is too right wing.

In answer to your question OP, its never really been answered by the SNP. So the electorate are just left to guess. I suppose that does give the SNP the element of flexibility to change their minds should it prove annoying at some later date.

However, what I would say as some reasons are:

• subsidies. So many projects in the Highlands are funded by the EU because of the disadvantaged region status.

• trade - if Scotland was an independent country, it would really need the ability to trade freely with the rest of Europe, without higher charges and tariffs being imposed (which are illegal under EU law).

• which brings me to the recent case before the European Court of Justice against the Scottish Government's minimum alcohol pricing policy. The Court has ruled that this is almost certainly a breach of EU law, as expected, and NS isn't happy. She has, according to newspaper reports "vowed to defend this policy". Quite how is unclear since it was such an obvious breach of EU law in the first place, and with so many similar cases decided in the same way, that it was breathtaking that it was ever defended at all.

• I can only assume that the way of the SNP to deal with EU law will continue to be to ignore it or pretend it doesn't apply when it is a nuisance to them, as at present, and to fail to employ anyone who can give them proper legal advice. Rather a lot of lawyers are coming to the conclusion that the Scottish Government are unable to take proper legal advice or do not have anyone sufficiently experienced in the field of EU law working for them, so amateurish is their output. Its not just minimum alcohol pricing, there are also clear breaches of EU law currently in public procurement, competition law, changes to property law and the rental market, university tuition fees and proposed extensions to data protection rights across the EU (the Scottish Government doesn't want to implement them because it will inconvenience staff and it doesn't think anyone outside Scotland would wish to avail themselves of the right).

• I would also make a good guess that their policy, under the theoretical independent Scotland in the EU scenario (would take at least 10 years to join) would be to pretend to their by then increasingly unhappy electorate that everything is wonderful, targets are being met, yields are increasing year on year and so on, in the former USSR manner. As well as blaming it all on historical events involving the English, no matter how long ago.

I'm in one of the strongest pro-independence parts of Scotland. I also know that there's a strong level of anti-EU feeling. I don't think that pro-Independence = pro-EU.

Another issue, for any intelligent voter on either side of the border, is that it's difficult to be for or against something without knowing what you are voting for, and no one on the eurosceptic side seems to have a sensible answer about whether they want a clean break or whether they want to be part of the EEA/EFTA.

The uncertainty about what an "out" vote meant was fatal to the Scottish independence campaign in the end, and ultimately won't help the anti-EU campaign either.

Scremersford - interesting what you say about Scotland being in breach of multiple EU laws. It sounds as though the SNP response to Brussels trying to tell Scotland what to do is just to ignore it. I'll be interested to see how that develops.

Mistigri - totally agree on your last point. The Out campaign(s) is (are) a shambles. Cameron's 'renegotiation' is meaningless political theatre and there is no coordinated voice calling him on it. They need to shape up fast - my gut feel is the referendum will be called in 2016 and it'll be a mess

Honeslty, most scots working class and middle class just hate the tories and what has become of labour since blair. If we could have a genuine socialist labour party that presented a real alternative to the neo-liberal pro-corporate agenda then I doubt we would be that keen to leave.

Being in the EU is useful and desirable. Being in the UK is neither. Its as simple as that.

I gave an example of refugees but it obviously spans to all areas of life there.

I know it may not be economically viable to split away however everyone has to agree that foreign policies are decided in Westminster and not in Edinburgh. That is the fact.

There is a class divide in Scotland in terms of yes and no voters. Of course not every working class or lower is a yes voter but most are. Again those who are not educated to degree level also tend to be in the yes camp. Thankfully the '45' have gone quiet for now!

PinkPurpleBlush So Yes voters are generally "working class or lower and not educated to degree level. Nice to see these threads going the way they always do...