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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

In feeling that when children really underachieve it's not always the fault of schools or parents

62 replies

nicoleshitzinger · 03/09/2015 17:11

Feeling really sad and a failure as a mum at the moment. I'm a qualified teacher, though non-practising these days, yet my children are really underachieving at school.

My bright dd adamantly rejected every offer of help from me or anyone else, scarcely bothered with any of her lessons from years 8 - 11, and left school this summer with 2 GCSE's.

My middle child has just started secondary school and is having strops about me wanting to have any input into his work. He got a level 6 in his maths in year 6 under his own steam, with no maths practice or any other input from home, or tutoring (as he seemed to be making reasonable progress we just stood back and didn't interfere). I would just stand back and accept he wants to do things on his own if his literacy wasn't really weak to the point that he will struggle a lot if he doesn't do something to improve it. At 12 he should be using capital letters, full-stops, and writing in complex sentences surely? But like his sister he has been massively resistant to any input from DH and me. He will really find any essay based subject difficult at secondary if he doesn't improve his writing drastically.

Every time I hear someone talking about how support from home is absolutely crucial in helping a child succeed at school it's like a knife to my heart, and I feel so sad and guilty. I want to help my children but they have always been so difficult about accepting my input, no matter how gently it's offered.

Does anyone else experience this with their children? I feel absolutely gutted that my kids have so much potential that may never be fully realised, because they pig-headedly refuse to accept any help and guidance from adults who are willing and able to help them. It's the most frustrating experience and I'm feeling very sad about it.

OP posts:
BobandKate0 · 03/09/2015 19:21

Agree with others its a complex problem,have you considered that children may resent that the credit for any work they put in, is often taken by the teachers they don't like.In the past younger pupils would be helped and encouraged by older pupils - all unofficial and in secret - but i suspect these days it would be called cheating.
You could get all machiavellian and secretly ask a friend of his to ask him for his help on writing rhetoric.

NewLife4Me · 03/09/2015 19:31

OP, I can sympathise my ds2 was like this. I am also a non practising qualified teacher/ post compulsory and my ds2 even did the subject I taught at A level.
His teacher knew me and it was so embarrassing, I tried everything imaginable.
As far as your y7 child is concerned all I can say is I wish I had insisted on being really active in my ds2 secondary education. Ds1 was fine, not too bright but worked so hard for his 11 C grade GCSE's. He couldn't have done more.
Ds2 however was bright like your dd and got a few GCSE's all C's and D's, I don't know what else you can do. I know it's so frustrating.

MagicalHamSandwich · 03/09/2015 19:34

My mum could have written your OP about me. I was absolutely miserable at school and basically refused to put in any work at all. I didn't fail academically - but with an IQ of 145+ I should have been excelling had I not been actively refusing to. I eventually dropped out of school because I decided I just wasn't bothered. My mum was in tears for weeks.

Things turned around for me when all my friends went off to uni. I felt really low and finally decided to take my qualifications so that I could join them there. Ended up being a lazy student but put in a minimum of effort and got two good degrees.

I'm now a hard-working, utterly reliable thirty-something. People who didn't know me when I was younger struggle to believe I was ever lazy.

Like you, OP, my mum's a teacher. I can honestly say that me being an total brat about school had nothing to do with her. I just hated it and refused to cooperate with the system. I feel sorry for what I must have put my mother through in hindsight!

NewLife4Me · 03/09/2015 19:38

Just a thought but I have recently been a H.educator and we had a tutor for dd for languages as we don't speak any and certainly wouldn't/couldn't teach her.
Could you not ask him which he prefers, mum/dad helping and supporting him or a tutor. Put it to him as these are the only options as it's your job to make sure he reaches his potential.
If your dd is doing A levels now or a level 3 qualification you could insist on checking her work against the scheme of work etc. Perhaps making pocket money reliant upon you being satisfied.
I so wish I had done this with ds2 now.

airside · 03/09/2015 19:43

You said you had spoken to your children about this.

What did they say?

SoThisIsSummer · 03/09/2015 19:50

It takes all sorts op, I think all we can do is make sure home life is steady and secure so they can concentrate on their studies.

My DP argued so much but would never admit this it was impossible to learn or want to learn anything.

At the end of the day most of it has to come from them.

Dont be too hard on yourself.

Can you get your DD to re do her GCSE's , maybe let her work in Macdonalds for a while and then see if she wants to re do ( I have worked there myself)

Moregravyplease · 03/09/2015 20:36

Do you think some DC rebel because their parents work in education? Just a thought as I know two teachers and both have had issues with their DC, maybe it's just a coincidence though.

missymayhemsmum · 03/09/2015 22:55

I'm also wondering whether they are rebelling against you trying to 'take over'. What worked for mine was to ask them to make a plan for the year- ask them what they want to achieve, and what support they need to acheve it? What difficulties are they having and what help would they like? From whom? then so long as school was attended and homework done I only ever gave help when it was asked for and refused ever to sign a planner. Their education at secondary was between them and their teachers, nothing to do with me, unless they asked for my help.

On the basis that we had established that while school didn't thrill them, it's the law, so if you have to be there, you might as well take full advantage of every opportunity you are offered. Doing badly in secondary school is surely even more boring than learning stuff, after all.

Secondary school needs to be the child's world, where they're in charge of their own career, IMHO. They don't get to tell me how to do my job, I don't get to tell them how to do school. Just listen, support, be interested, etc.

Although I also made it clear that if I came to parents evening and heard anything other than 'is a pleasure to teach and doing well' I might start taking a closer interest in homework than they would enjoy.

I also have a dear friend who is a teacher with an under-performing lazy rebellious son. I suspect he does badly at school purely to piss her off and upset her. She then ends up booking tutors at which point he disappears, because his participation in education has become the chosen battleground between them.

MaddyinaPaddy · 03/09/2015 23:24

I truly think it is rebellion.i don't want to offend anyone, but I think anyone 'bright' could get a C in most GCSEs coming at it completely cold.
What are her plans for the future now?

Goshthatsspicy · 04/09/2015 06:19

You can get a "C" coming at it cold maddy
If however, (like my son) you do zero course work... Your results are a little different. Wink

Idefix · 04/09/2015 06:44

Maddy I am not sure many would agree with you on getting a c "cold".
There is a fine balance between taking total control and allowing children to find there own way through school.
From experience when my ds showed signs of disliking my support I dropped back and let him find his own way, this resulted in the last two terms of his first year of GCSEs being very poor. His own way was extremely disorganised with lots of computer gaming and many, many detentions and his grades slipping. At the start of year 2 I stepped back in and discussed with ds what his plans and priorities were, he reluctantly agreed that his way had not worked.
Gaming stopped during the week, homework sessions were supervised, and with some of his tutors I was in weekly email communication on how best to support ds.

His exam results were a mixed bag with a and b for maths and sciences and c and d for other subjects.

Sorry for very long post but in essence I guess I am saying that we cannot let go of our responsibilities to support children's academic attainment. I don't think they have the maturity or foresight to see that no gaming and social lives are not more important than putting in effort with school work. This is where we still have a role to play as they get older.

goblinhat · 04/09/2015 07:10

I sympathise. I am nut sure why some children are like this, I have come to the conclusion that some of it is personality type.

I have two kids and the are quite different in that respect.
My DS is in his final year at school. Incredibly clever, but a very poor work ethic,Doesn't take exams or studying seriously at all.
He will leave school with just enough exams to scrape into University.
He could be a straight A student if he applied himself.
However he is a happy boy, helpful, kind and a joy to be around. He is planning a gap year abroad as soon as he leaves school as he can't stand the thought of any more academic work.

My DD (15) has a very different style. Always trundling along the average marks at school, but she is very driven. Already thinking of her exams next spring, she works her socks off, has self made study plans, is organised,already has in mind what she wants to do when she leaves school and the qualifications she needs to attain for her course. She takes homework seriously, self plans study days on her own and with friends etc.

They are both very different, and yet have had the same environment and same amount of parental input.
Which leaves me thinking it must be to do with personality type rather than circumstance.

wanderings · 04/09/2015 07:58

Here are my thoughts, because I remember very clearly being the teenager who was bright (in the subjects I liked) but lazy, whose mum was a teacher. Throughout childhood I longed for independence: the only thing I wanted was to be grown up and free.

From as young as four years old I remember resisting fiercely whenever I felt I was being "made" to do something. If for example my mum said in a bright encouraging tone "today we're going to start writing a diary", I sensed from the exaggerated tone that I was going to be made to do this whether I wanted it or not; that it was a restriction on my freedom; and I remember the realisation every single day out would always be followed by having to write about it.

Whenever my mum tried to give me advice, instead of hearing what she had to say, I only heard the nagging tone, felt the restrictions on my freedom, the ruining of holidays by being made to study, etc. I actually dreaded holidays as a teenager because they symbolised being at home to be nagged, especially the half term in May (just before exams). I would often listen to other people, but I always had difficulty taking advice from my mum, perhaps because it was always very emotional on both sides.

My mum was a secondary school teacher and so wouldn't stop pressing me about school work; the more she nagged and interfered, asked me about homework, asked the dreaded "how did your mark compare with the others in the class", the more I rebelled. I loved foreign languages and science subjects, but I loathed essay subjects such as English, history and religious studies, dismissing them as pointless, and did as little work for them as I could. I especially despised any that needed research or reading. It became easier in year 10 when I was able to drop some of them; only then did I gain enough self-discipline to work hard. I got reasonable GCSEs and A-levels, which were good enough for university, but only now in my 30s do I start wondering if I would have got all A's if I'd worked harder.

To be fair to my mum, though, I keep wondering what she might have done differently to motivate me; I found out later that one of her tactics was to secretly get other family members such as grandparents to encourage me. For all I know, her asking them to help might have been very tearful indeed, but if so, she did spare me this. Getting other people on board did work because they would be less emotionally attached, and I was more likely to listen to them. I did feel a bit cheated when I found out, but it hindsight it was probably one of the best things she did. My dad (not a teacher) did once hint that it was very hard for her, as she was a teacher.

I also think I might have done differently if I had learned more about careers (though perhaps not hearing it from my mum), in particular which ones are well-paid. Although there was a lot of careers support at my school, nothing much was said about pay; it was all about entry requirements and qualifications. If I had used the possibility of a well-paid job to motivate myself, rather than simply stopping mum nagging me, things might have been different.

Pneumometer · 04/09/2015 08:03

the only thing my children seem to care about is bloody Playstation, and their phones/gadgets

So take them away, then. Sorted.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-34139196

Goshthatsspicy · 04/09/2015 08:10

meter how old are your children?

nicoleshitzinger · 04/09/2015 09:17

Wanderings - I have never been a hoverer or asked my children to do extra work. They've received no tutoring from me or anyone else outside the home.

My expectation is that they attend school and do the work which is set, and put a bit of effort into it - not do better than everyone else but simply do what their teachers are asking them to do.

I've failed spectacularly with dd. she went all the way through secondary not doing homework. Most of her school books were 3/4 empty. She spent most of year 10 and 11 in internal exclusion so didn't attend a lot of lessons. my battles were all about getting her into school.

Anyway, that's all past. She started college this week and is doing a BTEC. She is insistent that she'll do things differently now. We shall see. She left this morning without the stuff she needed for her first full day: her pass, her birth certificate, her NI number (for her CRB). So far, so typical. She should have sorted it out last night but clearly couldn't be arsed. She told me this morning, literally 2 minutes before she left the house but it was too late for me to art it for her. Sad

I think my experience with dad was so fucking awful and depressing that it's made me twitchy about DS. It all started to go wrong for dd in year 7 - she just didn't try. At all. It now worries me me that DS has started secondary and is so uncaring about his work that he thinks it is ok to hand in the very first piece of work set full of crossings out, in terrible handwriting, with full stops and capital letters missing. DH made him sit down an redo it and with some sulking he produced it again in neat handwriting with all the punctuation in place. He can do it, he just chooses not to. He's lost his lanyard within 24 hours of starting secondary and was insistent that shoving all his papers (timetable, homework timetable, map of his classrooms) loose into into the pocket of his rucksack without a folder was fine so they're all dog-eared and manky now.

I could have taken this if it hadn't been also involved so much contempt and rudeness towards me and my advice. Apparently I know nothing. Hmm

OP posts:
Boleh · 04/09/2015 09:21

I was 'bright' and generally enjoyed schoolwork and was willing to work hard, however I was horribly bullied and therefore wanted to get out of school ASAP.
On my GCSE study leave I announced that I was never going back - my mums tactic was to say OK, but then you need to get a job, let's have a look what's out there.
Of course I was horrified at what was a available without requiring any education (bugger all) and even a clutch of good GCSEs was going to be low paid and a long time to work up, A-levels it looked a bit better but to do anything I really liked to look of (and paid an exciting looking sum of money) needed a degree. So off I trundled back to school.
It was definitely the best approach for me, careers advice concentrates a lot on your interests, the qualifications needed and where they might lead. But it's very different seeing actual job adverts with a salary attached - it brought home how a few more years in education really make life easier in the long run.

Pneumometer · 04/09/2015 09:31

meter how old are your children?

A level. Did you have a point? Play stations are easy: don't have one in the first place.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 04/09/2015 09:32

As others have asked, have you had your DC assessed for SEN. DS1 is 12 with rubbish handwriting and random punctuation he also has a pretty high IQ. I know this because he has been assessed with mild dyslexia and dysgraphia. He is learning to touch type in school as he will eventually need to do exams on a computer (even he struggles to read back his writing sometimes).

DS2 is 8 and regularly comes out of school having forgotten something. His handwriting is fine but he does have a stubborn can't do attitude that has to be worked around sometimes. He is also bright but has dyslexia. He resents having to struggle with things sometimes which can make him resistant to trying and to accepting help.

mummytime · 04/09/2015 09:39

Have you read Carol Dweck's work on mindset? It sounds as if your DC may have a fixed mindset and be afraid of work or failing - you can turn this around. It is never too late.

notaprincessbutaqueen · 04/09/2015 09:56

I hate the term 'underachiever'.
I have a really high IQ and so was expected to do really well - however I am also dyslexic and really stuggled in school so my grades do not match what people expected. does that make me an underachiever? I don't think so as i worked really really hard and did my best. stop putting pressure on children to be perfect!
The best lesson a child, or adult, can learn is self-responsibility. cut them some slack, let them make their own mistakes and learn from them. just because your dd didn't do well at 16 doesn't mean the end of all opportunities. i left school at 18, single and pregnant. I then did my degree in my late 20's via the Open University. you get more then one chance at education. however when you say
I would just stand back and accept he wants to do things on his own if his literacy wasn't really weak to the point that he will struggle a lot if he doesn't do something to improve it.
i think there is your problem. your telling your son that he's going to do well unless you help. you are not giving him the opportunity to achieve by himself! give him a chance, ease of the pressure, and let him surprise you.

nicoleshitzinger · 04/09/2015 09:59

No learning difficulties ASAIK. Just a negative attitude.

Will have a look at that book.

OP posts:
nicoleshitzinger · 04/09/2015 10:01

Notaprincess

My children

  • have no learning disabilities
  • do as little work as possible
  • are not 'pressured' to be 'perfect' but are expected to 'do their best'. What is unreasonable about that? You are projecting.
OP posts:
nicoleshitzinger · 04/09/2015 10:05

No - I've said he won't do well if he doesn't improve his literacy.

He can do it with my help or without, but he needs to DO THE WORK.

This means not doing his homework in the bare minimum time, not bothering to plan it or think it through properly before hand, not reading it through after he's written it, not drafting it and not not making corrections.

It would be easier for him to do it with my help but I'd be delighted if he decided to do it on his own. Either way, if it doesn't happen he's going to tank in secondary as he is mostly doing essay based subjects.

OP posts:
HeighHoghItsBacktoWorkIGo · 04/09/2015 10:11

I think all kids are different. They aren't born little "blank slates." Some kids flatter parents, other's make parents look incompetent because they are just so darned difficult and parents with "easy" children just cannot fathom the situation.

My DC are doing well, and of course I like to think it is because I have done the right things. In truth, I don't really know. It may just be that I got lucky, and have calm, biddable children. It could well be that a range of different parenting styles would have produced the same results because my DC are as they were always going to be, bar serious neglect or abuse.

It reminds me a bit of when my eldest was a baby. She did not sleep well. I got loads of advice from mums whose babies slept well. Doing what they did was not helpful. Their routines did not turn my DD into a baby who slept. Their babies weren't good sleepers because the other mums were so clever and competent. They were good sleepers because they were naturally good sleepers. My DD still sleeps lightly. It is just who she is.

OP, I think all you can do is to love your DD and do your best and never give up faith in her ultimate potential. Some DC don't come out of their "teen years" until well into their 20s. (I dont' think I calmed down and emotionally matured until I had children myself in my early 30s! Blush)