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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think that people in this country shouldn't be so poor?

77 replies

WitchOfAlba · 25/08/2015 13:56

It's the 21st century and we still have people who can't afford to heat their houses, who can't afford to eat and can't afford clothes.

Charity shops are too expensive for people on the lowest incomes, food banks are inaccessible to people who work, council tax benefit is not available to people who have saved for their children's future, people are sitting in dark and unheated houses because they can't risk a big electricity or gas bill.

I'm not talking people who are unemployed, though heaven knows it's wrong that they are poor and can't afford things like the above but now it's people who are at work who are also forced into poverty.

OP posts:
WanderingLily · 25/08/2015 16:49

I agree with Osolea.

Bottlecap · 25/08/2015 16:50

The fact that we give away millions in aid while there are working people here who can't afford to feed themselves is pretty disgusting, actually.

I kind of agree, but then again, isn't this the cost of the empire?

PoundingTheStreets · 25/08/2015 16:54

So much about wealth is reliant on luck. For example, if you are lucky enough to be born into a family that values education and spends time with you encouraging to maximise your potential, live in a postcode where the schools are good, where you parents can afford to enrol you in and take you to extra-curricular activities that broaden your horizons. You really do have a head start in life, and not enough credence is given to that.

Some children grow up in households where parents aren't as available or encouraging, sometimes because they're shit parents, sometimes because they're simply ground down by a life spent working all hours for minimum wage and yet still can't afford a holiday or even to send their child on the school trip. After years of that with no promise of any improvement, it grinds you down.

In an ideal world, we'd have measures in place to try to redress some of these inequalities, so that every child has the same opportunities regardless of the background they are born into. Unfortunately, many school trips have become more expensive than those available to individuals online (when part of their original purpose was to make these sorts of trips accessible to children who wouldn't ordinarily be able to afford it). Free extra-curricular actives have been cut to the bone and simply don't exist in many places. Libraries have been closed across the country.

People may be poor because of their own choices in many cases, but how are they going to encourage the next generation to do any better if they aren't taught how? Someone needs to break the cycle. It's not fair to lock people in cages without a key and then criticise them for not breaking out of it.

I don't subscribe to the "it's not true poverty it's relative poverty" argument. No one is dying in the street of famine, but that doesn't mean it's an acceptable state of affairs in such a rich nation.

When my DC were small and I left their abusive father, I did so as a full-time employee in a good job with no debt. I was fortunate that I had saved enough to cover childcare for a while as DC were planned. I also bought a house with a smaller than average mortgage, so my housing costs were lower than normal too. Despite those advantages, thanks to no maintenance from my X (self-employed) and the cost of two children in full-time child-care so that I could keep my job, my financial reserves quickly disappeared and I had to sometimes put food or fuel on credit card. I built up debts. I regularly went without food and sat in the cold so that I could afford to feed the DC. I sometimes had to scrounge lifts because I couldn't afford fuel in my car. I could only dream of meeting a friend for coffee, let alone affording a night out, and I actually had to embroider flowers on my shoes to cover the holes because I could not afford to replace them.

Do I count myself lucky compared to say a mother in Sudan? Of course, I do, but quite frankly at the time I was too bloody cold and hungry to spare them that much thought. And unlike Sudan, my country has the wealth and infrastructure to combat these problems.

However, instead of subsidising childcare, or providing tax breaks to people with young children, or making it unacceptable for absent parents to avoid paying maintenance for their children, this country has currently chosen to blame it on poor people making poor choices. And maybe I did. I made a poor choice in my children's father. I'm still bemused by the notion that making my children pay for it will somehow make it better for the next generation.

As it turns out, I'm now doing fine and that's in the past, but it could have been a very different story. I won't judge people for being poor. I've been there and know how much it depends on luck.

comfybigduvet · 25/08/2015 16:55

I think that post was horrible actually and I'm saying so.

Poverty in this country is relative. half the time the problem is a lack of poverty in this country rather than its true existence in the way it does in Africa and Asia. Half of those who walk through the door to collect their food parcels will struggle to fit through it. Compare that to those starving, literally, elsewhere, combined with any number of naturals disasters, no welfare state, and you begrudge them aid?

Dadistired1 · 25/08/2015 16:55

Yanbu op we are the 5th richest nation in the world and so their is money in this county, it's just with people who don't like sharing it (Tories).

BeckerLleytonNever · 25/08/2015 16:59

Only because we are lucky enough to live in a country that will provide care in the absence of anyone else in the first place.

^^ erm. a fulltime carer for a disabled person -LIFELONG carer for LIFELONG disability earns around £1.10 an hour for 36 hours ONLY. the other 100 hours in a week are unpaid, no holidays, no tea breaks, no company car etc etc.

this country does NOT provide adequate care hence the millions of pittance ''allowance'' carers get for a more than fulltime job, plus factoriring in the COSTS of disaablility care- specialist food for allergies, toileting equipment that the government wont provide, washing allergies and having to pay over the odds for things a disabled person needs that the government dont give a fuck about, etc.

lavent same here. similar story.

BeckerLleytonNever · 25/08/2015 17:04

pounding. good post.

PoppyBlossom · 25/08/2015 17:11

poundingthestreets I agree completely with your point about who actually has the power in this country, it's misogynistic men. I'm pretty sure if every father paid adequate child maintenance with criminal and financial penalties otherwise, the welfare bill would be greatly reduced as well as a greater sense of social community.

Osolea · 25/08/2015 17:21

Becker, I must be imagining all those disabled people in state funded care homes then, and all those that get money to pay for 24 hour assistance. Carers allowance isn't the only way carers are ever paid for in this country.

Either way, I agree with you that caring roles and undervalued and underfunded, and that the cost of being disabled isn't paid for in the way it should be.

The fact that we give away millions in aid while there are working people here who can't afford to feed themselves is pretty disgusting, actually.

I find this sentiment pretty disgusting. I get that there are issues with the way that our foreign aid is allocated and subsequently spent, but that isn't what's being complained about. I think we should be giving far more than we do away in aid, and ensuring it is spent on people that need it instead of being used as a political football. We have taken so much in wealth and resources from other countries, and caused plenty of problems around the rest of the world. A little bit of foreign aid money doesn't even begin to touch the sides.

suzannefollowmyvan · 25/08/2015 17:57

the main aim of foreign aid is to keep the 3rd world poor and prevent them from modernising

TalkinPeace · 25/08/2015 18:23

Overseas aid is aimed at making the lives of people in poor countries good enough that they do not want to come to the UK

Unfortunately it was privatised by Gordon Brown and handed to a bunch of Hedge Fund managers.

Well targeted overseas aid reduces the numbers of asylum seekers

shovetheholly · 25/08/2015 18:29

pounding Great post. Thank you for sharing.

I would like to take all the posters who say 'It's not that bad' and let them live it for 6 months. Just six months. I guarantee they'd be in tears within 6 days. It is far worse, far more exhausting, than you can possibly believe if you've always been well off. And it's so much worse now than it was a couple of decades back. People are going hungry, going cold, and living in shit housing. Sad

WitchOfAlba · 25/08/2015 18:33

Osolea poverty may be different for people in this country compared to some other countries, yes. It doesn't mean they don't live in terrible poverty. I was talking to a woman the other day about her situation and with her income only 1% of this country are worse of than she is and there are many, many more like her.

OP posts:
googoodolly · 25/08/2015 18:36

We shouldn't be helping people in other countries when the government is claiming we "can't afford" to help the people who live here! Foreign aid is all well and good and I'm not saying we shouldn't support other nations - far from it - but surely our primary focus/concern should be at home. There are children here whose parents can't afford to feed them, to buy them shoes. Yes, it's not as "bad" as the poverty in other places but we should be making sure that children in THIS country are cared for adequately before we worry about everyone else.

It's pretty galling to see millions go abroad in foreign aid when there are threads on here about parents being unable to feed their little ones because they don't have enough money.

Osolea · 25/08/2015 18:51

I do understand that people live horrible lives in this country, they can be poor despite our benefits system, their health can be awful despite free healthcare etc. What I disagree with is the implication that poor people shouldn't exist only in this (or other rich, Western) country as if having had the privilege (in global terms) and good fortune to be born here makes them more important and less deserving of poverty than people elsewhere.

I don't understand a mentality that wants to protest against poverty by complaining that people who have saved for their children don't get council tax benefit instead of complaining that some people can't feed, clothe house, educate and medicate their children, never mind save for them and concern themselves with their local council tax.

TheExMotherInLaw · 25/08/2015 19:04

I can see this over three generations. My dad was on a very low wage. We lived in a lovely council house, and mum was sahm until I started school, then part time until I started secondary school. My sis and I may have wanted for a few things, but never needed for anything.
My hubby had a reasonable job (awful hours & shifts, mind), enough for me to be a sahm most of the time - he earned the money; I made it stretch.
My son has a job that pays just over minimum wage. He can't even afford to rent a place of his own - he's in a house share following the marriage breakdown.
Relative poverty is much greater, and nowadays the destitute are blamed and punished for their poverty. I've claimed unemployment benefit occasionally in the long distant past. As long as I signed in, did my bit, there was no threat of sanctions. People who were clearly disabled were not found fit for work and suffered total loss of benefits. Not only have the poor become poorer, relative to the rest, those who have become richer have also become meaner.

Charity shop prices - don't get me started - I used to manage a charity shop - prices set by the district managers who looked as if they only shopped at Debenhams

zeezeek · 25/08/2015 19:14

I'm not poor, in fact I'm relatively wealthy and I'm pissed off at the people who dismiss poverty in this country by comparing it to the Third World. It is comparison that is complete and utter bollocks.

People in this country are going hungry, can't afford to heat their homes and can't afford the fuel to get to work.

That's wrong and that should be making people angry. We are a rich country and this is the 21st century. We should not be in this position.

We should not have a society where the suffering of people in our own country is dismissed so easily by the Government, some sections of the media and, even worse, other people in the country.

googoodolly · 25/08/2015 19:15

We should not have a society where the suffering of people in our own country is dismissed so easily by the Government, some sections of the media and, even worse, other people in the country.

THIS.

AuntyMag10 · 25/08/2015 19:18

Osolea completely agree with you.

Desertedislander · 25/08/2015 19:26

YANBU. It's sad

WanderingLily · 25/08/2015 20:00

Really, poke my tax up to 30% and make sure that third world people have access to clean water. I am more than happy with that. But don't send that money somewhere that the fcking fckwit bastard in charge is using the dosh to pay his own private army to defend him and his from people who are actually quite unhappy with the status quo, or to buy a gold plated bath.

See, I think people here might be OK with ousting him but there'd be a tedious bunch of navel-gazers saying it was all our fault anyway,centuries ago, and we're not quite at which point in history it would make us feel good to support... ummm.. well one side anyway.

HelenaDove · 26/08/2015 01:26

Osolea Tue 25-Aug-15 16:23:29
People in this country aren't poor compared to people across the rest of the world, apart from the few who literally live on the streets. And considering that people who were born here are no more special, or worthy, or important than people born anywhere else in the world, I don't think we're doing too badly really.

Ah the "rest of the world" argument.

So if i said the woman who is being emotionally and financially abused by her partner isnt really being abused compared to the woman further up the road who is being physically beaten by her partner that would be ok would it? After all its the same principle you are using You are minimizing the situation of poor ppl in this country by comparing them to someone else.

kippersmum · 26/08/2015 01:53

I have recently got in from work. My minimum wage job that is evenings & weekends so me & DH don't have to pay childcare fees. We are poor. We hate it :(

I worked fucking hard tonight, far harder than I ever have sat on my arse in an office. Still people look down on me.

When you pick up that pint of milk first thing tomorrow morning from your local shop, it is there because I put it there at gone 10 pm tonight when you were sat drinking wine on the couch at home.

I have a private education & a science degree. You may wonder why I don't have a career? I have a child with Autism.

If anyone would like to tell me I can have a career with suitable childcare in place please do. I have been unable to find childcare for 9 years. Please prove me wrong.

There are many reasons for people being poor. Having a child with SN is not a "bad choice". It is lifes lottery.

Rant over...

HelenaDove · 26/08/2015 02:18

kippers Hope you manage to get some rest at some point. Thanks

HelenaDove · 26/08/2015 02:26

comfybigduvet. White bread pasta biscuits are staples given out by food banks They are carb and sugar heavy but food banks cannot hand out fresh food because it doesnt keep. There are causal links between poverty and obesity. That is why some "cant fit through the door" as you put it.

And when ppl dont eat anything for a long time the body goes into starvation mode which then means anything they do eat it will cling to. With the amount of ppl having to rely on food banks and eating in this way .....hungry for days ....then carb or sugar heavy food obesity WILL get worse.