to think that people in this country shouldn't be so poor?

[WitchOfAlba]

It's the 21st century and we still have people who can't afford to heat their houses, who can't afford to eat and can't afford clothes.

Charity shops are too expensive for people on the lowest incomes, food banks are inaccessible to people who work, council tax benefit is not available to people who have saved for their children's future, people are sitting in dark and unheated houses because they can't risk a big electricity or gas bill.

I'm not talking people who are unemployed, though heaven knows it's wrong that they are poor and can't afford things like the above but now it's people who are at work who are also forced into poverty.

Raising the minimum wage is not the solution.

More in wages = less in tax credits for the worker = same net result

More in wages = increasing fees for non profit entities (council, hospital, charity) = more taxes or more mechanisation and less jobs

IThink presumably that's a lifestyle choice and so is entirely different to people who are in poverty and don't have those things.

TalkinPeace with the change that are coming to tax credits there are going to be a lot of people who suddenly are dropped even further into poverty because they are not getting much of an increase - 1% in the public sector I believe and a big drop in tax credits. I wouldn't like to be a public sector worker on a zero hours contract at the moment.

Witch
The NMW changes overrule the purported 1% cap (which is largely being ignored by lots of public sector bodies anyway)
So wages will rise : but jobs will be lost.

The bigger issue is that inequality has risen massively in the last 20 years
and the poor have been encouraged to borrow so that they can "have it all"

Things like phone contracts that make people think they are getting a free iPhone when in fact that phone is costing them over £1000

and satellite TV cheaper than going out except that it isn't because people think they have saved money so get a takeaway as well

There's been more billionaires made in the last 5 years then ever before. Money makes money. It's disgusting in this day and age people have to choose between heat and food.

But at the same time I do believe if you can work you should and I'm so far left it's almost Marxism. I think it was a great idea to move the income support age to 5 not 7.

The difference between nursery aged dc and primary school aged dc life chance is pretty big. If corporations and the highest earners actually paid their tax instead of finding all the loopholes I believe things would be different.

Also the way we value jobs and how much wages are paid needs to change. OK a surgeon does a great job and saves lives but he couldn't do his job without the cleaners. All the patients would end up dead with septicaemia.

YANBU OP.

I'm no advocate of communism as I believe that hard work/talent/ability should be rewarded and some people do deserve more than others.

However, I'd like to see the criteria redefined for what counts as deserving.

To my mind it is beyond ludicrous that a footballer can earn more than £2m a year while someone caring 24/7 for a disabled partner can expect no more than £62.10 per week.

I don't wish to take away from the footballer's obvious talent to be in that league, and the fact that the game generates revenue that benefits the economy in numerous (sometimes far from obvious) ways. I'm not saying the footballer should be regulated to minimum wage.

However, I think hugely inflated salaries and grotesque profit margins should only be allowed after we have ensured that ordinary people who are prepared to work in low-skilled/low-paid work are adequately provided for by their wages. Without the cleaners/care workers/shelf-stackers our country would grind to a halt, no matter how talented the footballers, politicians, media-darlings or stock traders may be. I think that anyone who is prepared to work full-time should be able to afford to live to a standard of living that includes a modest family holiday once a year. I also think that we should be able to care for our most vulnerable before we allow such huge profits.

Capitalism generates money and pays for life-enhancing institutions such as schools and the NHS. Capitalism is not evil. Where we've gone wrong is assuming that all worth is measurable only in a financial sense.

TalkinPeace The bigger issue is that inequality has risen massively in the last 20 years
and the poor have been encouraged to borrow so that they can "have it all"

Maybe they have, but being encouraged to borrow and being able to borrow (except from loan sharks) are two entirely different things? If you have an appalling credit rating then you aren't going to be able to borrow are you? That's probably no bad thing since you can't afford the repayments anyway. It's a vicious circle isn't it? You have no money, you can't borrow money and you can't find a way to get more money because applying for better paid jobs means more money for petrol or bus fares etc.

well sure, but that's besides the point, humans have become vastly more prosperous over time, no one should have to feel grateful merely for the fact that they live above the level of basic subsistence

If they're able-bodied and not contributing to this machine of wealth creation, then subsistence seems perfectly adequate.

most of the wealth creation work was done by previous generations, what we have has been built of gradually over time, we're all living off of inherited wealth

Agree with Pounding.

What counts as contributing? Does caring for one's disabled child count or not?

If you have an appalling credit rating then you aren't going to be able to borrow are you?

Yes you are, and many do. Brighthouse and most catalogues will sell on credit to people with terrible credit ratings. Even big electrical retailers don't do much in the way of checks. Many do a "buy now, pay nothing for a year" type deals, which then hit people with enormous interest charges.

I have friends who live very well on tiny incomes. They budget carefully and have no debt. They eat well and have everything that they need.

I also have friends who have much greater incomes but live very poorly. They are weighed down with debt, have heaps of contracts to pay, eat out, but don't have enough money left over to buy breakfast each day.

Perhaps banning all types of credit/debt for the under-21s and putting more emphasis on money management in school would help more than simply raising the minimum wage (or benefits for that matter).

It's not inherited wealth, a lot of the wealth was created during the slave trade and we're indebted to that. If we paid back retributions like the Jewish community got the country would be bankrupt.

If they're able-bodied and not contributing to this machine of wealth creation, then subsistence seems perfectly adequate.

What about the families that work full-time on minimum wage? Surely they deserve to do more than just survive at a basic level. But so many are struggling to make ends meet and they DO work. Hard.

People should be able to support themselves at a basic level on minimum wage without wondering whether they'll feed themselves or heat the house each month.

Perhaps banning all types of credit/debt for the under-21s and putting more emphasis on money management in school
Brilliant idea

What about the families that work full-time on minimum wage? Surely they deserve to do more than just survive at a basic level. But so many are struggling to make ends meet and they DO work. Hard
Yes, bring on the living wage.
Suzanne all the work has been done by our predecessors? What are you on about? They can make gains in productivity (innovation is ongoing) but someone has still got to plant crops, stock shelves, clean, close books, sell stuff, assemble cars, fly planes, dig ditches etc. how do you persuade people to do these jobs when you'd like them to be able to stay home on the taxpayers dime?

People in this country aren't poor compared to people across the rest of the world, apart from the few who literally live on the streets. And considering that people who were born here are no more special, or worthy, or important than people born anywhere else in the world, I don't think we're doing too badly really.

There will always be some poverty, and the vast majority of it will only be relative poverty, because people are free to make their own mistakes and choices here. People are often poor as a result of their own choices to have things that they have no way of paying for, and then they are stick with debt they can't afford.

I would and I wouldn't agree with the above post. Yes compared to the rest of the world we are very lucky even when we're poor we have access to free health care and clean water.

But a career for their disabled child/elderly parent is saving the country thousands by what they do.

Interestingly the local councils are in trouble atm with ethnic family's not caring for their old anymore and becoming westernised. Before it was safely assumed they wouldn't need places for Chinese/Italians/Africans/Indians and now they do.

. The fact that we give away millions in aid while there are working people here who can't afford to feed themselves is pretty disgusting, actually.

this ^^.

and the lovely ian duncan smith is now FORCING disabled people to go out and work.

meanwhile they all give themselves massive pay rises the rest of us can fuck off.

and who the hell voted for this lot again?????????????? ? all the surrey broker belt and the posh parts of england that would rather do away with the really hardworking and the disabled as far as theyre concerned.

and in this pc country they WILL give homes/welfare help/healthcare for the even more migrants making their illegal way in, and the rest of us suffer.

in this day and age and there are FOOD BANKS? and the tories, instaead of getting up off their arses and doing something RIGHT, they just continue to blame the previous governments for the current state of affairs.

no one should have to feel grateful merely for the fact that they live above the level of basic subsistence

I disagree with this. I feel very grateful to have had the good fortune to be born on a country where I can get free health care if I need it, where my children will be well educated for free, where if I can't afford to house myself then I'll be given money to do so, where if I can't feed my children then I'll be given money to buy food, where if a crime is committed against me then I can phone a free police service to deal with it. And I can have all of this without ever having earned a penny to contribute to the fund that pay for it all.

As I said above, we in this country are no more special, no more deserving, no more important than people born anywhere else, so actually, I think we should all feel very grateful that we live above the level of basic subsistence.

No they shouldn't be so poor, it's actually disgraceful that the number of UK billionaires has doubled and companies are sitting on huge amounts of surplus cash yet there aren't enough jobs to go around, and the majority of jobs being created are low paid.

Banks will quite happily loan millions if not billions to finance a merger, but they won't lend a budding entrepreneur a few thousand to start their new company and if they do it's at a stinking high interest rate.

But a career for their disabled child/elderly parent is saving the country thousands by what they do.

Only because we are lucky enough to live in a country that will provide care in the absence of anyone else in the first place.

But I agree that care work, whether it be in employment or for family, is hugely underfunded and undervalued, and in a country that can afford it, it is shameful.

The fact that we give away millions in aid while there are working people here who can't afford to feed themselves is pretty disgusting, actually.

See, we've pretty much fucked over the developing world by forcing privatisation on them. Developing countries are losing billions every year from tax evasion, multiples of what they receive in foreign aid.

Agree with osolea

YANBU

I am one of those poor people and it's rubbish.

I don't put the heating on becuase I can't risk a huge gas bill.
I don't have carpet downstairs.
I struggle with good shopping some weeks and I've already been to the foodbank 6 times this year. Technically I can't go again.

I do have a second hand TV though and a very old iphone with a smashed screen.

It's not what I planned in life and it's pretty depressing tbh but I hope it will change one day.