Hull trains cancelled, 3 trains' worth of passengers on one train

[xavierfondue]

DD (age 17) and her boyfriend (also 17) are trying to get to Edinburgh today to go to the festival. I dropped them off at the station with pre-booked tickets and she is sending me all these messages that:

a) the train is packed
b) they only just managed to get on
c) the passengers already on the train tried to stop them getting on [but fortunately they (surprisingly, where did this come from? I always thought they were so polite) threw a complete strop and barged their way on, probably rudely and aggressively but I'm actually quite proud of them]
d) No reservations on the train, so they were split up and had to stand in different places - the seats I'd booked were completely invalid
e) Only got seats (not together) at York
f) Apparently, as the title states, there are three trains' worth of passengers on one train.

HTF did this happen?

The kids were talking last night about going to Japan for a month next summer, after leaving school. I was all for saying no, you're too young, but after this I think I should let them go.

AIBU to think Virgin Trains are completely useless after they took over East Coast Trains? There are always delays (DH uses it everyday) and this is a bloody joke.

And to cap it all, Mumsnet only sent me my email on WEDNESDAY to say my account had been hacked. I only picked it up today.

Gin. Where is the bloody emocion for gin? Stuff the

FGS is ull not Hull.
Although spent my youth eating fish & chips there (in the olden days when there were trawlers) I've never heard of chip spice.

Virgin is shit. Not read the entire fucking thread, but has anyone else pointed out that they are using old rolling stock which is presumably how they got the contract? I mean, the doors have windows that you have to pull down and the operate the door handle from the outside. Also the seats are stained and dirty. Fucking Branson.

I'm great thanks :) It's sunday morning, the sun is shining, and I have no need to get on a train.

Don't even want to think about what I'd write on a postcard to Virgin, but it would involve a scanned picture of my arse with the words "KISS THIS" next to it.

They stranded me in Milton Keynes once the fuckers.

Cruikshank they are using the same stock that East Coast used before them and every operator has used since the early 1990s, it isn't like they've shipped in a load of shitey trains when they won the franchise.

Individual train operating don't own any stock. Nor can they ship in brand new fleets of trains at the click of their fingers. New trains are coming to the East Coast mainline, but that was going to happen regardless of who won the franchise and has been factored in to all the bids for the franchise.

cue HYSTERIA ALERT for the benefit of our friends down under.

cruikshank I thought they were phasing that sort of train out 20 years ago, when I was young and last caught the train regularly! (On account of numpties sticking their heads out of the window - and yes, I've spent the best part of the last 3 decades living substantially north of Hull)

There's a place on newland ave that does Ramen and sushi/sashimi.

yes, I may have missed the slight sarcasm

They phased out slam door commuter stock about 15 years ago.

On infrequent stopping express services it is less on an issue (fewer stops, fewer doors) and the doors lock centrally so can't open with the train in motion. I always enjoy travelling on Mark three stoc on the east coast mainline. The ride is far better than in modern designs which have engines under the carriage and are a nightmare for noise and vibration. As far as i am concerned If you are daft enough to stick your head out of the window of a train moving at 125mph and get decapitated, you are doing humankind a favour by removing yourself from the gene pool.

Realised I've outed myself as a train spotter. (Sips on weak lemon squash and zips up cagoule)

Midnite where the hell are you that the sun is shining? It's a showery and shitty Sunday morning here.

Maybe I should move to Hull.

Ah Hull. I love Hull! I love it even more because the ignorant like to dismiss it. It's actually Britain's best kept secret you know...

Talking of chips, house prices there are as cheap as chips. Leaving plenty of spare cash for chips or a day trip to Bridlington.

Ah Bridlington. I love Bridlington!

This could go on and on...

ComposHatComesBack - I'm sorry for asking what is clearly a thick question, but if the TOC doesn't have control of what stock it uses, then who are the 'they' who are bringing in new trains?

I have been bimbling up and down the east coast main line for something like 30 years, and the trains they have now are old. They are older and dirtier than the trains I caught 20 years ago.

m.hulldailymail.co.uk/National-Picture-Theatre-Hull-auction-8211/story-26657558-detail/story.html

See this Hull cinema? My grandmother used to get taken here as a small girl in WW1 and she saw a soldier on leave there a few times who took a liking to her - she must have reminded him of a little sister or something. He gave her a silk embroidered greetings card with 'Gloire Aux Allees' on it and wrote inside that it was for the little girl at the Picture House at Beverley Road, Hull. 100 years later I have the card, and we will never know what happened to the soldier, or who he was .....

National Picture Theatre

cruikshank 'They' are the Department of Transport who have laid down the specifications for the trains, selected the winning bid and overseen their manufacture, the ROSCO (Rolling stock operating company who actually own them) and lease them to the train operators (in this case Virgin). Virgin don't actually own any trains and they will have known at the time they won the contract that they will be operating these specific trains. It is a bit like getting a MacDonald's franchise, you get told what food you will be serving, what the restaurant will look like and what the staff uniform will be)

The procurement process is extremely complex and lengthy. The process for these new trains for the East Coat mainline started back in 2007 this process started back in 2007, in which time we have had four different franchisees (GNER, National Express, East Coast Trains and now Virgin East Coast. So it is important that individual franchisees aren't heavily involved in the commissioning process.

The wiki page isn't particularly up to date but contains a useful summary. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercity_Express_Programme

Honestly they are the exact same locos and carriages that have been on that route since it was electrified in the early 1990s. Class 91s and Class 43s hauling rakes of Mark 4 and Mark 3 carriages . When GNER won the franchise they heavily refurbed the interior ( complete by the mid 2000s) and very little has been done since then, so any decline you've experienced is down to wear and tear rather than different older carriages being shipped in.

As the carriages and only have a few years left on the route, there's been little incentive to invest time and money in cosmetic upgrades since then. Although Virgin have talked about doing something minor, I wouldn't hold my breath.

Cruikshank Further to my already tedious and over long post:

The exact type of train you will travel on will depend on the ultimate destination of the train.

The line is only electrified as far as Edinburgh. If the train is going to/coming from any point further north than Edinburgh it will consist of two Class 43 'Intercity 125' diesel locos sandwiching mark 3 coaches (the ones with the slam doors) and built in the late 70s and early 80s.

If the train terminates at Edinburgh or before, it will hauled by an electric loco a class 91 hauling mark 4 carriage stock (automatic doors) which was introduced in the early 90s so slightly more modern.

This has always been the case since the line was electrified in the early 90s.

Explain to me someone why we have to endure poor rolling stock and unreliable scheduling in order to generate profit for Deutsche Bundesbahn and Dutch railway companies? Why don't we just specify decent rolling stock and reliable scheduling in the tender process?

Why don't we just specify decent rolling stock and reliable scheduling in the tender process?

I agree with you wholeheartedly that privatisation was utterly botched and has sucked up more taxpayer cash than BR ever did.

With specific reference to East Coast mainline, the rolling stock it is 'decent' and the Class 43s were re-engined about a decade ago and is only just coming to the end of its life. The Class 91s are roughly half the way through their design life and will find a new home when they are taken off the East Coast Mainline. Diesel locos have a life of about 35 years and Electrics about a decade longer. Problems with East Coast Mainline are largely capacity and infrastructure related and in part stem from the fact that it was done on the cheap.

With reference to the broader state of railways in mainland Britain. It comes down to money. No one would bid for the upcoming Northern franchise if they had to replace every piece of rolling stock with brand new. Like a lot of non-mainline franchises outside of the capital the Northern franchise is heavily dependent on government subsidies. Any brand new stock would have to be paid for by increased taxpayer subsidy or horrific fare rises (meaning no one would use the railways). Even if there was the money and political will to do this, it wouldn't necessarily be possible, vast portions of the UK network is unelectrified and new regulations on emissions and the small maximum dimensions on the British network (low bridges etc) make manufacturing new diesel trains deeply unattractive to any manufacturer. As such there is no way any new diesel passenger stock will be ordered.

Any new to Northern stock that will appear in the next few years will be cascaded from other train operating companies and in most cases will be over 20 years old as it is cheaper to lease older rolling stock from the ROSCOs than brand new. The ROSCOs have basically got a licence to lease out knackered old rolling stock.

Because we put up with it?

Whoever runs the east coast franchise always employs the same people, as far as I can see. Most are very nice but the exceptions are:

(1) the 'train managers' who HIDE IN THEIR LITTLE OFFICE AND ARE TOO SCARED TO WALK ALONG THE TRAIN when their train is delayed. Cowards. I go and knock on the door and force them to stamp my ticket (for the compensation claim) and look up connections for me. Which they should have done without being asked.

(2) the people on the so-called information desk at Kings Cross, particularly where an evening train is delayed or cancelled, who appear to enjoy being intransigent and unhelpful ("no, we don't know why the train is delayed. No, there aren't any supervisors in the station. No, we won't ring the control centre because we're not allowed to. The computer says no. Go away, you bastards. You might have paid £250 for a ticket but you'll get no help from us")

I bet the Germans wouldn't put up with that.

BTW OP, why have Virgin asked for your views when you weren't on the train?

Compos, OK, that makes sense, but how can we move it forward to a better situation? (Albeit incrementally, I presume).

Phew Boffin that's a million dollar question.

If we wanted to let re-nationalise, it would be relatively straightforward, wait for the franchises to expire and then take them back into public ownership. Although the rolling stock would presumably be owned by the ROSCOs.

Although badly executed and the current 'pause' of the electrification of the midland mainline and the transpenine route has hampered progress, the actual strategy of 'electrify and cascade' where the diesel locos released from newly electrified lines replace the worst stock is fundamentally sound and a hell of a lot more cost-efficient than trying to pay massively over the odds for a small order of bespoke diesel units.

But yep, it is a hugely complex process with bridges and tunnels causing a particular problem and Network Rail got themselves in a mess trying to do too much too quickly.

There is also potential to do interesting thing with battery powered electric vehicles and electro-diesels to fill in the gaps between electrification. Some of the new East Coast Mainline trains will be electro-diesel meaning that Aberdeen bound trains can travel to Edinburgh drawing power from the overhead lines and switch to diesel engines for the last stretch to Aberdeen. This is a vast improvement on the the current situation where Aberdeen bound trains run on diesel power under the wires for 300 odd miles to Edinburgh.

This thread has taken an unexpected turn for the sensible

Hi nettletheelf - Virgin asked my views because muggins here was the one who booked the tickets and paid for the tickets hence they think I was the one travelling.

Boffin - email that story to the Hull Daily Mail - they love that sort of thing. Seriously, do - they print old photos and ask "Where are they now?" - if you get no joy, contact John Meehan (google him for contact details) and ask him if he's interested in pursuing this for City of Culture 2017. The Beverley Road cinema is an iconic building Hull.

coughs I might know more about Hull than I'm letting on