To wonder if the school day for secondary school pupils ran like a 9-5 office day

[LunchpackOfNotreDame]

Especially for the upper years, would this have a positive effect on children? I'm not asking about the whys and wherefores on the impact on teachers but whether running a longer school day would help?

I don't know what side I fall on this but I have noticed when speaking to colleagues that went to private school and who find the long hours 'easy' or 'manageable' say it's because they did it from a young age.

They do in France, even at primary level they are at school until 430/5.

A longer school day doesn't mean teachers working more hours!

If it doesn't involve teachers then it's not "school".

"schools were often set up to keep feral kids off the streets"

Yes there is that element, but at that time we also had kids down mines and up chimneys I'm not sure the treatment of children from that era is something to be aspired to.

School did last longer in the past. It began at 9 and finished around 4, but had an hour for lunch, break in morning and afternoon.

If more school doesn't mean more work for teachers then it really is glorified child care, isn't it. Doing their "homework" you'd have to hire a lot of cover supervisors to work those hours.

Isn't mumsnet the place where most people complain about not being able to take their kids out of school when they want? Strange that they also want their kids in school longer, with shorter holidays.

Schools already offer breakfast clubs, after school activities, revision sessions etc etc. Its enough.

A longer school day doesn't mean teachers working more hours!

I don't get this bit- what does it mean then?

Some of the countries with the most successful education systems only have 4-5 hours of lessons per day and start school at age 7... (Finland for example). France, with its ridiculously long day and very early school starting age ranks about the same as Germany with morning only school right the way through and school starting age of 6.

There seems to be no link at all either way, between number of hours of school per day and school starting age (so average hours of school in total up til age 15), and average national attainment by age 15 (PISA scores).

Living in Germany I have never heard of anyone saying that young adults who only went to school til 12.15 right through til they left have any problem with a working day. However there is not the presentee culture of simply being in the office very long hours looking busy - people work at work (no social media or reading the paper) but leave on the dot, generally, and there are no prizes or admiration for doing longer hours than needed. No idea if that has any link at all to the school day being somewhat similar, or to the fact there is homework daily from age 6 (which I hate, but...) so self directed work and the benefit of just getting it done so you can have your free time is totally ingrained, I guess... (I know that's finally kicked in for DD now she's 10, after a few horror years of homework procrastination she is now totally self motivated with homework).

So on balance probably no help whatsoever to kids to keep them in school 8 hours a day, just free child care - that's the one and only reason for it, which has to be set against the benefits of children having free time to play outside while its still light... (and go to sports clubs and do other extra curricular activities which reflect their own personal tastes, interests and talents rather than being one size fits all or a limited choice for a whole class/ year group).

Lightbulbon

Back then your secondary was open 9 - 4. Different schools had different times.

"As for 'schools aren't childcare' - go read up on the development of elementary education in the 19th century - schools were often set up to keep 'feral' kids off the streets."

Yes but to paraphrase a great man "this is no longer the century of the fruitbat."

"We have these lovely shiny new school buildings with great facilities everywhere"

Are in the UK?

"yet they are lying empty and unused for most hours of most days of the year."

Again not true, if the school that I work at finished at 5 they would lose money from the bookings that start at 4, people are in there till 9. Saturdays are filled with theatre groups etc. and Sundays are people using the sports fields. The only time that my school is "empty" is during the summer break when there are major clean up and maintenance work, and even then its only for about 3 - 4 weeks.

Even ignoring the staffing issue, I think it's unfair on kids.
Dd never needed much sleep and so after school club till 5.30/6 gave us time together, she's a joiner in for clubs, and her extra curricular stuff fitted in just fine. Not every child would be fine with it though, and not every outside interest would fit in.
Her secondary does have longer days, but longer holidays, and as she gets older she's more likely to be pursuing her interests independently outside school, unlike at a young age when it needed to fit round my work/ childcare.

Hmm. Can't generalise as I can only state what was the case for me/mine.

I have " busy kids" . by 16 they were in school by 8 ( library , choir, rehersal for assembly/GCSE performance etc) and by 4pm on the bus to choir several nights a week and music tuition another couple. so they easily topped a 9-5 day most days.

They still found work experience knackering though! I shall never forget Ds did a day in a school nursery and was watching wimbledon when i got in from work- he was almost too tired to move his eyes to track the ball!

As a working parent i'd appreciate if kids could do HW at school semi supervised in the early years TBH .

DD'S secondary school will have "open" full day school available 4 days a week. You sign them up in advance and if they go they have to stay for the supervised homework session (supervised by subject teachers, but actually as it's joint with the neighboring school not her teachers) and can then go to a range of clubs or can just hang out while the school is open til 4 pm.

I think that's a good idea and have signed dd up 2 afternoons a week but would hate for her to have to do it, eespecially every day.

It's not really childcare as they have no cafeteria or anything and the kids have to leave the site when school finishes at 12.15 and can choose whether to go straight to the neighboring school, where there is a place to eat their sandwiches, or to go to a cafe nearby or into town til the "open full day school" actually starts at 1pm :o

Still a version of that could be a middle ground.

Kids need more sleep than adults so making them do a 9-5 day plus travel time and 11-12 hours sleep and meal times would leave them only an hour or two unstructured per day, which sounds awful.

I'd be in favour, for secondary pupils only, if the last hour and a half or two hours were either homework club, supervised by cover supervisors, or extra curricular activities, run by qualified staff, such as sports coaches, drama, cookery, music experts, etc. This way it wouldn't impact on teachers' hours, and home time would purely be home time, as all work would be completed in school.

creamegg

but the question of payment comes up again, who should pay for these "extra" activities, schools do not have the funds and the government won't give any more money out.

Most secondary in my area, which isn't very well off, already offer some extra-curricular activities most days of the week.

I bet they get the extra curricular through the good will of the teachers. Start expecting it and they will withdraw it!

What about people like me? I didn't want to do my homework straight after school- I wanted to chill out a bit first. I then wanted to do it in silence without other people around.
I also didn't want extra curricular on top of the school day. If I wanted drama or dance or something I could have lessons away from school, with a break and different people. If I wanted to learn to cook there was a kitchen at home.

I think it boils down to cheap childcare and cheap extra curricular which would cost a lot elsewhere.
As a tax payer I really don't want to fund any of this!

It already does for the staff - and extends either side of 9-5, often by a long way.

My son will beatending a University Technical College where they do until 4.30 3 days a week. Hes looking looking forward to it as they get to use the last part of the day for projects and industry qualifications.

THe number of hours of actual teaching that children get is almost identical across all types of school in the UK (from Elite Boarding to bog standard comp)
and is unchanged since the late 1940's

Private schools have longer days and shorter terms
previous generations had longer breaks and thus later finishes

but the number of hours of teaching
is the same everywhere in the UK

and is in fact remarkably consistent around the world

CremeEgg

"supervised by cover supervisors, or extra curricular activities, run by qualified staff, such as sports coaches, drama, cookery, music experts, etc. "

Cover supervisors are paid for their time

"Most secondary in my area, which isn't very well off, already offer some extra-curricular activities most days of the week"

Run by teachers.

Do you think that these experts will do it for free? Just because teachers do doesn't mean that everyone will.

Unless you mean that the experts are the teachers?

So who would be happy to PAY for their child to complete homework "supervised by cover supervisors" or pay for extra curricular activities run by ualified staff such as sports coaches etc? Because if you are not prepared to pay for it,it won't happen! There is no money in school budgets to extend the day so the money would have to come out of your pocket!!

At a nominal cost I can't see it being a bad idea. One or two supervisors per 50 kids £1-2 per session per child will cover a non qualified workers costs and then some

One or two supervisors per 50 kids £1-2 per session per child will cover a non qualified workers costs and then some

Except that that would be illegal in

• ofsted ratios
• employment law

Children under 11 have to be on 1 adult to 7 kids
NMW is rising to £9 per hour plus ERS NI plus pension plus holiday pay
plus first aid and DBS costs
plus admin costs

Ah, the joys of the MN bubble yet again

One or two supervisors per 50 kids £1-2 per session per child will cover a non qualified workers costs and then

Where will these groups of 50 students being doing whatever you think they should be doing?
What happens when parents can't/won't cough up? The school day will not have been lengthened, it will have become an after-hours club.
What happens to all the clubs/organisations who use school property to run activities ( for money) that some schools rely on for income?
Who pays for the increase in heating bills?

OP, you still haven't said what they will be doing, or why it is "positive," whatever that means, nor why education has any business being preparation for the timetables of office life.

Thirty-six years in teaching has still left me with a shred of hope that education is not merely instrumental in getting a job.

Toooo private schools also have a month longer in the summer holidays ....

I teach at a sixth form college and our lessons are 90minutes long and run from 9-12 and then 1.30-4.30 (though students will have a study period within that time). Extracurricular activities are largely offered within the 12-1.30 lunchtime sessions. Staff meetings /CPD etc are 4.45-6pm, usually 1-3 times per week. I think most staff would agree that the 3-4.30 lesson can be the most challenging as the students are tired by then (especially by Friday!) and I think it would be even more difficult for younger secondary students.