aibu to be slightly upset at being referred to as a foreigner in the country my Mum came from

[donotfeelsecure]

Hi
My Dad is English and my Mum was from another European country. Growing up we lived in a 3rd European country for many years but as expats really - the person who was most integrated there was my mother, while still obviously being the nationality she was.

My sister and I were educated in English and we spoke English at home. We speak my Mum's language though not as well as English. We sound English but do not sound like native speakers when we speak the other language. Just for context!

Growing up I found the split identities difficult. I was born in England. We moved to my Mum's country when I was 6 months old and stayed there till I was 4 or 5. My sister was born there. When I was 4 or 5 we moved to the 3rd country which is where we both basically grew up. We were definitely foreigners there. We often visited our grandparents in England and in my Mum's country - we would also be outsiders there (though less in England as our mother tongue is English). I used to obsess about this quite a bit (as a child) and wonder where I was actually from .

As an adult the issue has kind of resolved itself. Except for one year in my Mum's country teaching English and a couple of years working in the country I grew up in, I have lived in England. I have now lived here for 19 years in a row and identify as English but will always tell people where my Mum was from if they ask me where I am from. Or will say I am half English half the other nationality. It does not often come up anyway because of the way I sound (though my first name is the other nationality version of an uncommon English name). I am very happy to finally belong somewhere in the same way that no one would say that Helen Mirren was not English just because her mother was Russian. Also we live in London where a lot of people have come from somewhere else so there are no issues around not fitting in.

So to get to to the point finally. Dh, the dc and I are on holiday in my Mum's country visiting my Dad (who moved here when my Mum died, he did not go back to England). We went for out for dinner last night and in the course of the evening we were referred to as foreigners several times by both my Dad's partner (who knew my Mum well - they were at secondary school together from the age of about 15 / 16 and remained friends until my Mum died 8 years ago), and by her son. I suppose the dc, despite being one quarter this nationality cannot speak one word of the language. But I feel oddly upset about this on my own account. At home (in England) I am proud to be able to speak my Mum's language (though it gets rusty and I do not understand slang) and always allude to my dual heritage in honour of her really. So it annoys me a bit that I am so viewed as an outsider when we are here .

This is not a big issue really (and apologies for the long back story ) or even very interesting (), but I do wonder why I get upset when I have definitely chosen to be "English" . I suppose I would like some sense of belonging here as well because after all half my entire family tree is from here.

Just wondering if anyone can relate to this really .

I wonder if this is also a bit about missing your mum? Like you say, your dual heritage is important partly 'in honour to her'. It's important to you because she's important to you so calling you a foreigner, especially by someone who knew her well, may have felt like a denial of her. Since my mum died I've been much more protective about the things she valued. I think this would have bothered me for that reason.

Thanks for the recent messages.

I don't think my Mum's friend had any particular reason for saying what she said - she was talking about the way locals behave on buses vs foreigners and she included the word you - something like "you foreigners" (). It's true that I am more English public transport wise . I can't remember in what context her son called us foreigners. I don't think either of them had bad intentions.

My Mum not being here means, I suppose, that our "foreignness" is more apparent as we can't hide behind her knowledge of the language or familiarity with the place and her wider family.

Not sure about the power play. My relationship with her was not always easy and in some ways I found my Dad easier to talk to (when I was older). That might have been a consequence of understanding him better culturally I don't know. Probably not - my sister had the opposite thing and probably got on better with my Mum.

It's interesting that mental health issues are associated with being 3rd culture kids. Have to do some reading up on that.

I do think my Mum's death makes everything more poignant and I have regrets about parts of our latter relationship. "Turning my back" on my connection to her place would be yet more proof that she is no longer here .

Can identify with the being a child bit. I was born in London but my mother is Irish and we spent every single holiday in Ireland. As soon as school broke up for a holiday we were there, every single year from birth. That's a lot of time. We stayed in the family home and basically just carried on our lives there instead of here IYSWIM. And yet people who knew us well would always refer to us as the English kids. I hated it. I felt we had served enough time there to not be so separated. Now as an adult I'm over it but I remember being cross that they could remember my mother as a toddler but refused to accept her children as in any way Irish.

I think there is a difference between how someone perceives themselves and how they are perceived.

Years ago my husband worked with a woman who talked constantly about her culture and her homeland and how things were and negatively compared the UK to it - she had never actually been to this country but identified so strongly with it due to her parents and upbringing.
Well, eventually she went to visit it and they treated her like a tourist and called her English.
When she came back she never talked about her country again. When I first heard of it, I was young and stupid and shallow and felt she'd got a comeuppance (I was a dick)
Looking back with maturity it was really sad. She lost an identity that was really important to her.

Don't let them rattle you. you are who you feel.
I'm Hungarian and have a British passport (dual citizenship).
I will never feel British though and if people say I'm a forriner I don't care, I am!
but I haven't been to Hungary for 5 years, and not planning to at all any more. every time I went I felt more and more alien there.

Your home is where your heart is.
if you feel home in both countries or even all 3 that's not something another person's opinion could take away!

oh yes Shelagh I also had that experience.
Irish surname? Irish parents? not Irish if you have the English accent.
Mind you I am fine with that now, although it was a bit annoying when I was younger.

donotfeelsecure I sympathise. I think nationality is one of those areas people can be strangely insistent on telling you what you are or where you come from, in a way they wouldn't do for another part of your identity. I also have one English parent and one from another European country. My name, religion, family size and family behaviours etc are all very typical of that other country. I spent all my holidays there as a child and go there 3/4 times a year now. So many people are absolutely determined to tell me 'you're English, you're English, you were born here, you have an English accent'. It really bothers me too. I feel half and half. My upbringing has been much more typical of the other country. I identify strongly with that country as my 'other' home. It really doesn't matter what other people think. It's YOUR identity and your mother.

I imagine these feelings are particularly important following your mother's death and I'm very sorry for your loss. Try to ignore what was said to you, as I'm sure they didn't mean anything by it, and it doesn't take away from who you are as defined by yourself.

I think nationality is one of those areas people can be strangely insistent on telling you what you are or where you come from, in a way they wouldn't do for another part of your identity.

I agree, its like the become overnight experts in another culture! "You have an accent, so you cannot possibly have my same background, so you must have x background. Did i mention i have never been in x so i have no idea what i am talking about?"

that's right - my friends whose parents were from Jamaica used to get really pissed off - if he spoke in patois people would tell him he was faking it or being pretentious 'because you are not Jamaican'.
Yet if his parents had been from Spain nobody would have accused him of being pretentious for speaking Spanish.
It does seem to be 'everyones business' doesn't it?

I find it a really strange thing for people to have an opinion on, especially because those opinions are always SO definite...like they are catching you out. 'Well what does your passport say? Where were you born? You ARE English.'

If you ask one of those people whether, if they had been born in (e.g.) America because their mother went into labour while on holiday, they would be American, they are always very adamant that that's different.

The funny thing is I get this most often from people who have asked where my name is from. 'Oh it's X-country-ish? But you're not X-country-ish'. Okay...

Hi again

I wanted to say thanks for all the recent messages. This whole thread and people's accounts of their backgrounds / tussles with the issue of belonging/multiple cultures has been very interesting. Everyone has also been so kind.

We met up with my Mum's brother yesterday which was really lovely as I hadn't seen him for two years. I didn't flinch when he referred to us as the "English relatives" . I thought of you lot . In any case dh and the dc were unable to communicate with him (and he speaks very little English) so we are hardly "his nationality" relatives (even though the dc are, by blood, 1 quarter English, 1 quarter my Mum's nationality, and half dh's nationality of origin even though he has always had a British passport and came to England when he was 10). He did tell me I should teach the dc his language (and this is the subject of a whole other thread because despite dh and I having 3 other languages between us, we have only ever spoken English at home - I did not feel confident enough of my skills in my 2 other languages) which is an acknowledgement of my (and their) heritage.

In any case I can feel my "mother's language" becoming less rusty by the minute which is always what happens after I have been here for a bit, and I am able to hold proper conversations with both my Uncle and my Dad's partner as well as ask for things in shops. I can also understand everything that people say as long as they don't start speaking dialect (which neither of the two above people are prone to doing!). It's also a real pleasure to speak and listen to.

Anyway I am glad to be English. I am glad that I can say anything I want in this language (English) and express my every feeling. I am glad I live in a tolerant and outward looking city (which the one we are visiting isn't, though it is very beautiful) and that there is somewhere that I can call home . I also think that in many ways it's an easier place to live in despite the Tory vision of a deeply divided society than my Mum's country where corruption and organised crime play too big a part in the society (despite many ordinary people living decent and hard working lives). I also think that women have achieved more equality in the UK where the society is less divided along gender lines and where there aren't women in bikinis doing dance routines on every chat show.

So it's all good .

(Apart from the fact that my Mum is no longer with us . She died at 63 and would be 72 now, no age at all really.)

Sorry but YABU. I have a similar backstory except in my case BOTH my parents are from there and although I identify with my parents country, have the passport and speak the language fluently (you can tell I'm not a native though), I would always be a foreigner there!

OP have you heard of the term TCK? It stands for Third Culture Kid and it basically means someone who has grown up in a country or countries which is not their passport country/countries.

It is very common to struggle with identity and to feel that you don't belong in any country.

Google it and have a look at some of the websites and comments, I think you would find it helpful.

I personally am a tri-national. One of my parents was born in a different country and so I have a passport for there. I was born in another country (and consider that "home") and have naturalised in a third (and am living here).

I am not my father's culture and will always be a "foreigner" there (even though I speak the language). I will always be a foreigner where I am now because of my accent. And the longer I live away from my home country the more of a "foreigner" I will feel, and seem to others, when I visit (even though I sound the same accent wise).

Where you were raised determines whether you're a foreigner or not. So yes, you are a foreigner. Your husband, your children, you're all foreign. As you said, you're "the English relatives". There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

I think fact that you speak the language is great, and definitely something I would pass on to keep your mother's heritage alive. Teach your children about the culture etc etc. And if someone asks I would proudly state "My mother was X and I want my children to experience this culture". I hope my own children feel the same about their mother and her "culture".

I was born in Wales, to English (Durham and Tyne & Wear) parents. According to the English, I'm not English, according to the Welsh, I'm not Welsh, and I got laughed at in Infant school because I didn't know any Welsh nursery rhymes. I understand your sense of not belonging truly to either heritage. I just smile and point out I could play for either rugby team fat chance.

steppemum yes some people mentioned third culture kids and I am going to do some reading about it

It is very common to struggle with identity and to feel that you don't belong in any country just about sums it up!

shadowfax sorry you got laughed at for not knowing Welsh nursery rhymes. I think you seem to have the right attitude re the always being seen as from somewhere else thing.

I understand your sense of not belonging truly to either heritage. It's exactly that, though much less pronounced in England due to accent / fluency / length of time lived there (am still on holiday so England is "there" for the moment!).

I would always be a foreigner there!

MissWimpyDimple do you mind or does it feel OK? Come to think of it, my mother was viewed as an outsider (to a certain extent) when she returned to her country on holiday - despite being completely from there .

sykadelic yes we would have been tri nationals too had we stayed in our 3rd country (my sister and I), but we both left pretty much as soon as we finished school.

whatsinthename I didn't realise the bikinis were such a giveaway !

It hurts to see the bad bits

Yes some of the problems seem completely intractable .

I guess the whole issue is partly to do with accepting ambiguity, as you say whats. Thanks for your wise words .

Thanks for a really interesting thread on a subject that is puzzling me too. I didn't realise how much my identity was tied to my nationality until I moved countries. The first year 'abroad' felt like I was a ghost, a phantom with no real substance. Then slowly I learnt that my identity really isn't just about where I live or the language I speak.
I can absolutely see why the foreigner comment hurt. I don't even like it as an expat!
I think the best way to approach this type of comment is to see it in the context of the person saying it. I bet you any money this lady and her son have always lived in roughly the same area with two parents who are nationals of that country. They don't realise your identity is in part defined by that country. They don't see the shades of grey as they have never experienced them. Be glad you have! You are enriched by it!

Oh and yes that is where I am too! Land of bikini clad dolly birds on TV, the country feminism forgot!

And although I agree with whatsinthename about the translation of foreigner, you can't help but connotate it with the word 'strange' in English can you? Or is that just me?

If it makes you feel any better, even my national DH is considered a bit foreign as he doesn't come from this region /know the dialect. Parochial place basically. Considered adventurous to go further than an hour from home for uni.

Oops just realised I namechanged - gone from donotfeelsecure to donotknowhownottomind (bit of a common theme!).

Yes I think this thread has been really interesting too and has brought home how many people are in the "feeling slightly displaced" boat.

Hadn't thought about the word for foreigner being like the word for strange - but yes one must derive from the other - it would be interesting to know which came first.

They don't realise your identity is in part defined by that country. Mother and son did at one point live in a different town for some years but they have been back in their home town for a long long time now. I suppose that yes, if you can't relate to the shades of grey then yes maybe you can't see them in others either.

Feel like starting a separate thread specifically about this country as still trying to maintain a semblance of anonymity here (and kind of failing!) but there would be so many things to discuss including the massive funeral that has just taken place where we are staying, complete with unauthorised helicopter dropping petals from the sky