aibu to be slightly upset at being referred to as a foreigner in the country my Mum came from

[donotfeelsecure]

Hi
My Dad is English and my Mum was from another European country. Growing up we lived in a 3rd European country for many years but as expats really - the person who was most integrated there was my mother, while still obviously being the nationality she was.

My sister and I were educated in English and we spoke English at home. We speak my Mum's language though not as well as English. We sound English but do not sound like native speakers when we speak the other language. Just for context!

Growing up I found the split identities difficult. I was born in England. We moved to my Mum's country when I was 6 months old and stayed there till I was 4 or 5. My sister was born there. When I was 4 or 5 we moved to the 3rd country which is where we both basically grew up. We were definitely foreigners there. We often visited our grandparents in England and in my Mum's country - we would also be outsiders there (though less in England as our mother tongue is English). I used to obsess about this quite a bit (as a child) and wonder where I was actually from .

As an adult the issue has kind of resolved itself. Except for one year in my Mum's country teaching English and a couple of years working in the country I grew up in, I have lived in England. I have now lived here for 19 years in a row and identify as English but will always tell people where my Mum was from if they ask me where I am from. Or will say I am half English half the other nationality. It does not often come up anyway because of the way I sound (though my first name is the other nationality version of an uncommon English name). I am very happy to finally belong somewhere in the same way that no one would say that Helen Mirren was not English just because her mother was Russian. Also we live in London where a lot of people have come from somewhere else so there are no issues around not fitting in.

So to get to to the point finally. Dh, the dc and I are on holiday in my Mum's country visiting my Dad (who moved here when my Mum died, he did not go back to England). We went for out for dinner last night and in the course of the evening we were referred to as foreigners several times by both my Dad's partner (who knew my Mum well - they were at secondary school together from the age of about 15 / 16 and remained friends until my Mum died 8 years ago), and by her son. I suppose the dc, despite being one quarter this nationality cannot speak one word of the language. But I feel oddly upset about this on my own account. At home (in England) I am proud to be able to speak my Mum's language (though it gets rusty and I do not understand slang) and always allude to my dual heritage in honour of her really. So it annoys me a bit that I am so viewed as an outsider when we are here .

This is not a big issue really (and apologies for the long back story ) or even very interesting (), but I do wonder why I get upset when I have definitely chosen to be "English" . I suppose I would like some sense of belonging here as well because after all half my entire family tree is from here.

Just wondering if anyone can relate to this really .

I think you're too worried about this; I'm fairly sure you posted about this issue previously, and it seems such a shame that this is causing you such anxiety and sadness.
I hope you can see that others' opinions of you are simply that; your identity is internal to you, and shouldn't need affirming by others. Be proud of your heritage, raise your children to be knowledgeable about where they come from, but don't forget that they are individuals too, and will form their own narratives and histories and senses if who they are.
Many people have similar family histories, particularly after so many conflicts during the twentieth century. My DH is v v similar, but he worries about it not one jot- he is him; he is who he is, and his national identity is not him any more than I am identical to the millions of other English people around me.

YANBU to feel that sense of dislocation and 'being foreigner' - I feel the same, but it is, what it is.

You cannot affect how others feel about you, and 'nationality' is such an emotive and subjective thing, isn't it?
If you identify as 'English', you live in the UK, English is your first/best language, why would those of your mother's country see you as anything other than English?

I have lived in the UK for 22 years, almost half my life and most of my adult life. I still don't feel British - nothing wrong with being British, you understand , I just happen not to be and cannot see myself applying for a UK passport in the future (although applying for a passport for my EU Country is such a royal pain in the backside that that might just sway me! ).

IMO, in the immortal words of 'Frozen', you need to find a way to let this go.

We only, initially at least, have to go on the accent of someone we've never met before. If you do not speak your mother's language as a native speaker would then surely to them that will indicate that you come from a different country? Isn't that the definition of a foreigner?

I totally understand what you mean. I've been a "foreigner" all my life, my parents are from different countries, and their parents both emigrated to a third country when they were young (both were political refugees). I was born in England as my parents were here briefly, but they moved back to the third country when I was young. Then back to the UK when I was a teenager where I have now lived for over 25 years. In the country of my childhood I looked very different, and was teased because of it. i have an accent in every language despite speaking them all fluently, and people nearly always ask where I'm from. Sometimes people are really insistent to the point of rudeness. As a teenager I was depressed and anxious, and the issue of identity was (I think) the main problem. I have slowly managed to deal with it. The things that helped were (a) living and working in a diverse place were many others are of mixed background, (b) reading books on the issue of identity, I found books on sexual identity quite useful strangely!, and (c) finding a positive way to deal with the question when people ask (depending on how rude they are, I might be honest, give them a trick answer or just be mysterious which drives some people mad!).

YANBU of course!

Thanks for all your interesting answers. Have lots to say but will only have access to a computer later. Will write then as it's much easier than the phone!

I have the opposite problem. My maternal family claim me as their own, despite not being born there, never living there and speaking precisely three words of the language. I don't think they're just 'being nice', I genuinely think they have a broader concept of things like citizenship/brotherhood/etc, both culturally and legally.

I can't imagine this branch of the family describing me as a 'foreigner' but I'm not sure I'd feel bad if they did. However, I have my entire life mapped onto one other country (UK) so I feel a strong sense of legally belonging (even if patriotism means very little to me). I guess it might feel different with a third country in the mix.

It's an interesting problem I think and I do think the other guest were rude to you (although they probably didn't mean to be)

I have friend who's parents were Czech, she grew up in Germany, married a British man and spent her adult life in Britain. She speaks english, german and czech - her czech is possibly a little dated as it is what she spoke at home as a child. Anyway she feels Czech (and is Czech) but she is treated as a foreigner whichever country she is in (she lives in Czech Rep for several months year) - everyone sees her as a foreigner - and I think she feels a bit rootless because of it.

My heritage is a mixed bag and my family were pretty nomadic because of my dad's job. I now live in a totally different country from my siblings and the rest of the extended family on DMs side live all over the globe. I know that I certainly don't have a strong sense of belonging to any nationality. My passport says I belong to DFs country but I don't particularly feel like it fits. Then again I don't think any national identity fits me because it's not something that concerns me enough to be bothered.

I've noticed in England the word "foreigner" is seen as a rude slightly derogatory word but in other countries it's just a word. On the motorway in Spain there's signs saying foreigners this way for tolls and then in Thailand it says foreigners passports this way, where as in England you don't really see the word used like that. So perhaps you were offended by your family calling you a foreigner but they probably didn't see anything wrong with it.

I've had similar issues. Identity is complex and very personal. I see myself as English with x heritage, but I'm seen as an immigrant (been here since I was a toddler) here and in country x. I try to look at it differently, I see it as having access to a hugely varied culture and a wider world view.

I've had the same issue as Hex. I identify as Welsh, my entire family is Welsh, I'm fully bilingual - however, because I was popped out over the border, I've had plenty of idiots inform me that I cannot be Welsh myself . Plenty of people were born abroad during the colonies era, and they could still call themselves British/English etc, I really do not get the whole "well this is where you were born, I don't care you lived here 3 months before living the rest of your life in another country, with another language - you were born in England, you are English". I believe a person is who they chose to identify themselves as, especially if it's such a big part of their heritage.

I'm reading this with great interest as my DC are half English and half other nationality. They were born and brought up in DH's country, where they looked and sounded like everyone else, but once people knew they had a foreign mother they were considered differently. Some people were surprised they spoke the local language and others were amazed that we ate local food at home. Others made assumptions about their moral upbringing

They have all said that they grew up feeling "different".

Having a different background has definitely benefited my DSis in her job. She works as an international coordinator for a research facility and the research teams love her because she understands how they think and work. The Japanese way of doing things can be so different that she's in a great position to breach the gap between the facility and their foreign research teams. I did have a chuckle when she told me about the new boss making the Japanese staff say "one" so that he could correct their pronunciation. She doesn't look Japanese, he just looked at her name. He was when she opened her mouth. We're all fluent in at least 2 languages and have lived with so many different nationalities that the art of reading subtle clues has become ingrained, making her a great asset to them (if only the pita boss would realise that she really doesn't want his job).

I know myself that I'm a foreigner here as well as any other place I go to. I consider home to be where the people I love are, so it always changes depending on where they are. I think having that level of detachment allows me to know that I can move anywhere without feeling the wrench of leaving. I moved across the world all by myself at 18, this is the longest I have stayed in one place. DH, on the other hand, has strong feelings about his national identity and I can't see him ever emigrating anywhere unless the DCs move away first. He always talks about it but openly admits that he would struggle to leave his family.

Identity is not just about nationality, it is very much about feelings and sentiments. By calling you a "foreigner" your father's partner is denying the part of you that is your mother's daughter. You understandably feel hurt that this part of your heritage is not recognised, especially as you feel particularly close to this heritage through the language and the time you have spent in the country.

I know how you feel. My children are English. Unless I tell them otherwise, English people assume I am English. And in some ways, I am properly English, because I suspect that moving from elsewhere and becoming completely assimilated is one of the most English things you can do.

I was always a foreigner in my mother's mainland European country. My grandmother used to correct any linguistic mistakes, and used to call my sister and I "the Irish girls", which made me feel a bit different from the rest of my cousins, and actually put me off getting more involved with that side of the family.

Moving to England felt quite freeing - I started off feeling totally foreign and revelling in it, and gradually found myself settling down, and joining in, and now I'm always s bit taken aback when new people don't take me for foreign, when I've felt like a foreigner in both good and bad ways all my life.

I'm an immigrant in Canada and I'm British. I have Canadian nationality but will always be British. DH is British and Canadian and moved here when he was 3. He thinks he is British (more correctly Scottish), he is not. Although he 'gets' British culture, he is Canadian. He grew up here, his accent and most idiom is Canadian and he does come across as one of those North American, "yaw'll I'm a Scot" types.

DD will also be Canadian despite majority Scottish grandparents and me.

Parents from countries A and B met and married in country C. The DC born in country C are culturally very C and have all married partners who are C, and have their own children who are C.
But because people from country A have distinguishing physical features and all the children and grandchildren have inherited this physical feature to varying degrees all are considered 'immigrants' to country C and foreigners in A and even more so in B.
As a result all the children of the original A&B parents have fluid identities - they're really C but embrace either A or B a bit like the Irish American example earlier - partly as an internal mechanism to feel like they belong somewhere when the place they do really belong, which is C, appears to be rejecting them.
When your physical characteristics single you out as different the cultural identity becomes even more important.

I see what you mean, Mumbehavingbadly, an already complicated situation is made even more so by physical differences. But what exactly is cultural identity when there is such a mixture?

My DS is a mixture of A and B, lives in C where he met and married D. Their DS is going to grow up with four languages, I have no idea what he will consider his cultural identity to be. In country C , where they live, everyone seems to be from somewhere else. The local population don't appear to mix with the foreigners.

Thanks for all your interesting messages.

As someone said upthread - I don't think the word "foreigner" is used disparagingly here. I guess also that they (my Dad's partner and her son) are aware of our heritage but don't feel the need to acknowledge it in their every sentence. As someone else also said upthread - living somewhere else and speaking that language much better does kind of make you a foreigner.

The issue of belonging is a complex one and I guess different people react to it in different ways.

I hadn't heard about 3rd culture kids before so that's interesting. I can relate to the disconnectedness you were talking about mrsrisotto because I feel that now in England sometimes - though not so much in London I suppose. Even though I am more English than anything else, I am not as English as someone who has lived in England all their life and whose parents are both English. So I sometimes feel as if I am masquerading as an English person just to have a sense of belonging - hiding behind my English accent . I especially felt this way during the olympics when I really could not join in with the pro team GB endless rhetoric on the TV... (we went to see an England/Brazil handball match as well and I was sitting among some England fans who booed every time Brazil scored and seemed to be completely off their heads with excitement every time England scored a point, and again I really really felt out of it there). Yet if I am an outsider in my Mother's country (and I can see that I am - I suppose it is about coming to terms with that) and never integrated in the country we grew up in (beyond learning the local language), then what is the "missing" portion of me ? Is it nothing ??

Anyway I suppose that's kind of how my thinking goes (or used to go when I was growing up and was more obsessed by all of this) and I know it is kind of navel gazing and that a lot of people (as witnessed by everyone's interesting posts) are in similar situations. Also that national belonging is really not the be all and end all and what a boring world it would be if there was no cross over between countries / nationalities / cultures / ethnicities etc..

It doesn't help that my Mum's country is not a particularly outward looking one and that outsiders are viewed with some suspicion. The town we are visiting (her town) is not renowned for the politeness of the locals either (though obviously a lot of people are lovely once you talk to them) so people will grimace at you in supermarkets / or sometimes make rude comments as happened to us once, just for being different. Then I am torn between wanting to say "you know I am actually half from here " and "don't be so bloody racist ". We get stared at even more (not in the centre of town touristy areas but away from them) since dh is not white and our dc are mixed race. On the other hand it is a "starey" kind of culture, much more than the UK where it is really bad form to appear to be looking at someone else for too long.

So getting back to London (via Paris which feels very similar to London) always feels good as you could be pink with green spots and speaking a language from outer space and most people would not bat an eyelid or even appear to notice.

So anyway I feel a sense of sadness being here this time. We do touristy things while we are here though we are also going to see my Uncle hopefully a couple of times, and two of my Mum's cousins. To become more culturally adapted to my Mum's country would mean living here full time (and even then I would remain an expat) however, and it isn't really possible to do that given that the dc are at school in the UK etc... So then it feels as if I am closing the door on my Mum in some way . She had issues with the fact that we were more English than her nationality when we were growing up and sometimes used to say that we could just as well have ended up going to school in her language (which we could have, our school was an International one with different language sections) which would obviously then have made us less English and more the other nationality . It didn't help that I was kind of rejecting of her nationality in my teens (when I guess the issue of belonging is really important), really really wanting to be completely English (like a lot of my friends) and not have English people asking me why my ears were not pierced and if we ate a lot of "my Mum's country type of food". Then I felt like saying YOU KNOW MY DAD IS ENGLISH. There was one awful boy who used to say rude things about me (and my other nationality) which probably did some damage. Still now if anyone tried to tell me I am foreign in England I would be very upset. So I can't imagine how it would feel to really feel like a foreigner everywhere as some people do upthread - your post especially missmoon resonated.

Thanks for all your lovely posts.

I did not mean that to sound rude missmoon, and hope it didn't. Basically we are all human so I don't quite know why I am so obsessed with the issue of belonging .

Sorry, no time to read through right now but just to say I can certainly relate, my own background is similar. I was going to suggest looking up 3rd Culture Kids too, definitely second that. But as others have said, although your feelings are valid and normal, you can't control how your relatives see you. (Although at least they do see you as English and not 'Westernised' which is something I've heard more than once! :)).

OP do you think your "obsession" with belonging actually stems from the fact that your DM had issues with your cultural identity? If she found you too English/not enough like her nationality, perhaps you felt subconsciously that you had disappointed her in some way, and your hurt at being perceived as a foreigner in her country is a consequence of that?

FWIW, my DCs are not very English at all, which is only to be expected as they grew up in a very different culture. Genetically they are 50/50 English/Other, but in outlook they are more like 25/75, as parental influence also has to compete with friends, school etc.

If I remember correctly, one of the points about third culture kids is that it's a stressful situation to grow up in - suicide rates and MH issues are higher than in the general population, (although rates of achievement are higher as well). So it's very understandable that the incident now is painful if it is triggering emotions and problems from when you were growing up.

Also it can't help that it's your mother's close friend who made the comment - maybe it makes you feel like she's putting distance between you and your mother?

Do you have any idea why she made a point of saying it? 90% of the time what people say is about themselves, so maybe if you can figure it out it may still seem hostile, but not really about you, if you see what I mean. Does she have any reason to be envious of your dual identity? Or sad that your mother left?

Or maybe it's power play in her and your relationship with your DF? Complete speculation here - ignore if irrelevant..