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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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is sn on the increase?

244 replies

spritefairy · 13/08/2015 12:39

Now this is not to offend anyone with a child with sn but every other post seems to have someone who has a child with sn be it disabled or autistic. This makes me wonder.
Is sn on the increase or is it just diagnosed more than it used to be due to medical advances?

OP posts:
BertieBotts · 13/08/2015 22:52

I should begin by saying I have absolutely no training in this area except an AS level in Psychology and various reading that I happen to have done out of interest. But for me it points more strongly to evidence of social conditioning.

If we know that girls are generally socialised that outward displays of anger and aggression are frowned upon and that it is more acceptable to cry, indeed, this can even bring you more sympathy and better results and is shown in various media to be the "secret weapon" that women have in order to manipulate, or totally unavoidable because women are softer and more caring. And we know that boys are generally socialised that crying and anxiety are considered weak and unmasculine but that physical fighting and aggression is something natural and expected and "boys being boys".

If we know this is the case then we can deduce that a girl who is faced with a situation she does not know how to deal with is unlikely to react violently but more likely to become anxious or upset about it. Whereas a boy who is faced with a situation he finds intolerable is more likely to explode because this is the way that he has been taught his feelings are acceptable. If girls explode, they do so at home, with their families, where they feel safe. Boys are given the message that it's expected for them to explode when they find something tough so it is more natural for them to have that reaction.

We know that parents do this, even unconsciously, with little babies who are too young to know what gender they are and who act identically.

If we know that girls and boys experience the same typical childhood problems (for example, school work being difficult, being told off, or being rejected by a friend) but tend to deal with them in different ways then it makes sense that when the problems they experience are greater, that doesn't magically erase all of the conditioning, they are likely to deal with these greater problems in different ways as well. And it just so happens that the "boy" way of dealing with problems is more immediately noticeable and far more disruptive to other people, so it is immediately considered more of a problem.

We know that "tomboy" type girls who spend more time in the company of boys and consume media more aimed at boys are more likely to present in more male-typical ways. And the way parents think about emotion and children is changing, it is becoming less acceptable to tell boys to stop crying and be a man, so perhaps we will also see a shift in how different disorders present but I think it will be a long wait as the media has not changed, and the vast majority of the gender based socialising we do is entirely unconscious.

In fact perhaps it doesn't make a difference whether it's brain-wiring or nurture which causes observable sex differences, the problem is that we assume conditions such as autism or ADHD are so defined by their symptoms that we are forgetting that people react to situations in different ways, and one of the most marked and easily observable differences in behaviour happens between gender lines.

BertieBotts · 13/08/2015 22:55

Sorry that was a bit off topic... got slightly carried away :o

MrsDeVere · 13/08/2015 23:23

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MuddlingMackem · 13/08/2015 23:28

Kleinzeit Thu 13-Aug-15 18:32:25

Another thing that happened is inclusion. I recently heard a radio programme where a woman returned to the special school that had educated her. What impressed her was the much greater difficulty and complexity of the SN of the girls now at the school compared to when she attended. One of her classmates had been there because of asthma. She was told that kids with her level of SN would now be in mainstream education - leaving the special school for those who earlier might not have been in ed

BertieBotts · 14/08/2015 00:54

I've been reading the Warnock Report as mentioned on here earlier. I hadn't realised that children with epilepsy were educated separately either.

Can anybody tell me what was meant in the 70s by "delicate" children? It's a term used in the report and I don't understand what it means. Of course lots of outdated terminology in there but the others are clear.

BertieBotts · 14/08/2015 00:56

Wow, MrsDV, just googled and the last one didn't close until 2009 apparently.

Hissette · 14/08/2015 01:03

Bertie I know the theory but I'm not sure how much I agree with it. My DD has never been aggressive in any way even as a toddler. So I've never even had chance to frown on it or disapprove. She is very emotional though, her meltdowns involve crying/screaming and 'hysterics' (I know, I hate that word as well, but she epitomes it).

Also I believe females with ASD are more likely to attempt to be sociable, and have friends. They're better at imitating social behaviour in order to fit in. My DD has friends at school (loads of people have told me she can't have ASD because she has friends!) and I can see her trying to fit in but increasingly failing as she gets older. I can't believe all this is due to social conditioning when much of it is apparent at 3 when a child often hasn't even started nursery/school yet.

Hissette · 14/08/2015 01:10

Also I've socially conditioned DD to be polite, share, consider others feelings, be tidy, to clean her teeth and brush her hair, to eat an range of meals, to not interrupt, to not monologue endlessly, to swim, to walk in a busy street without bumping into people, to swim, to not scream in public (or at all) etc etc - none of these things she can actually do.

She's a fucking force of nature and I don't think anything I say or do makes any difference sometimes. So, you know, I'm sure she'd hit or kick me if she felt inclined. Even if a disapproved.

Hissette · 14/08/2015 01:12

What I'm trying to say is: I'm not sure how much social conditioning works on kids who don't do 'social' very well, or 'conditioning'.

BertieBotts · 14/08/2015 01:28

But what you're describing is behaviour management or parenting, not social conditioning. Social conditioning is less about what we should and shouldn't do and more about what we should and shouldn't want. (I don't even know if that is the right description either.) It's also largely unconscious and doesn't only come from parents. So it's not about responding to aggression per se but the microcommunications which precede aggression, for example. You won't be aware of how you respond to these, none of us are, but we do tend to repeat patterns because that's just how we work - we learn how to respond by witnessing others respond and recalling how people responded to us in those situations but it's all subconscious - you know when you hear your own parents' words/expressions coming out of your mouth? You didn't decide to use them but funnily enough there they are.

It's part of what makes it seem more shocking when we see a girl behaving violently and more touching when we see a boy displaying more "feminine" emotions such as crying or being very tender. Even if we are very convinced of our own gender-neutrality we do tend to have these reactions. Part of it is unfamiliarity but part of it is expectation.

But you do make a good point about autism blocking social and conditioning. I don't know enough about autism to know whether there is a link there or not.

uggerthebugger · 14/08/2015 02:03

bertie , "delicate" was one of 11 categories of disability defined in statutory regulations that fell out of the 1944 Education Act. Here are the others...

There's no clear definition of "delicate" - seems to have been a catch-all grouping for kids well enough to attend school, but with persistent medical difficulties (eg severe asthma, bronchitis). There's some suggestion as well that kids with a 'nervous constitution' might have been lumped in as well.

You'll note the reference to 'educationally sub-normal' - the SN part of this ESN was mentioned earlier by a poster who got the hump when her post got shitcanned by MNHQ...

is sn on the increase?
sleepywombat · 14/08/2015 05:13

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Mrsjayy · 14/08/2015 07:21

Long stay hospitals were also used for convilecence (sp) i was in and out of 1 in the 70s and 80s out and about i didnt see anybody with Downs syndrome but in hospital it seemed like another. I was the only disabled person in my primary school i was probably like an alien to the other kids.

Mrsjayy · 14/08/2015 07:26

Muddling I thought i was your mum friend until i read she went to special school thought i was going to have to name change Blush]

saintlyjimjams · 14/08/2015 07:26

Yes I do sleepy. I wrote a post last night extending on my previous one, but it didn't post for some reason.

I said something along the lines of - if - as the on the ground professionals seem to think - the numbers of people like my son (severely autistic) are increasing - it would make sense to find out why & what is going on. He is already expensive to the state & in a few years time is going to be costing the state hundreds of thousands of pounds a year.

At the moment no-one is making much of an attempt to even classify what is going on. 'Autism' tells you nothing about the underlying causes - and he is quite probably very different (in terms of underlying issues) than many who share an autism diagnosis, for starters he regressed - many don't - and is very severely affected.

I went on to say that for him & those like him, the most important research is probably that being done into the immune system & environmental triggers. There is quite a lot of that sort of research going on in the States. I follow it reasonably closely.

Jasonandyawegunorts · 14/08/2015 07:40

Autism' tells you nothing about the underlying causes

This is a big issue i think, "Autism" covers everyone with impairments of the three triads (Communication, Social interaction and forethinking imagination), and that's a massive, massive, net to cast under one heading.

Sirzy · 14/08/2015 07:45

That's a good point mrsjayy.

My dad worked in one of the old asylums up to its closure in the mid 80s and many of the people in there has learning disabilities in varying forms but they were completely institutionalised and for the general public it was very much a case of "out of sight out of mind". Thankfully things have moved on a lot since then (not far enough) so it is much more normal for those with learning disabilities to be out and about and integrating in society.

Jasonandyawegunorts · 14/08/2015 07:48

I was suprised to find out they still do Shock Treatment, it's given to people with advanced Schizophrenic Mania.

Scoobydoo8 · 14/08/2015 07:53

I wonder who is going to care for sn people in their latter years. There are some lovely houses for them round here and they have great lives but the costs are huge.
Once, for example, their parents have passed away who will care for them?
If, as mentioned above, more premature babies are being saved and, naturally, better health care means sn people live as long as non sn people.
Just thought I'd throw that in to the mix.
Council here is cutting back on day centres to save money, I feel sorry for the carers and of course the sn people, losing a weekly or sometimes daily social event.

saintlyjimjams · 14/08/2015 08:08

Waiting until parents pass away is far too late - would cause all sorts of chaos for those with more complex needs.

Ds1 is due to move into adults soon. He will probably (it seems) be set up in his own house or flat with his own team of 2:1 workers 24/7 (starting with 3 nights a week then extending). There is little choice here - there's not really a suitable overnight respite place & if he doesn't have 2 nights out a week at least he'll become dangerous - including to siblings. Agencies are paid over £50 an hour for the 2 workers (the workers don't see that). Add in the cost of the housing & specialist placements he'll be attending during the day & transport & everything else & it's astronomical.

I'm sort of stunned more isn't being done to look at those as complex as him (there's almost no research at all on severe autism - it's mainly on higher functioning - which may be an entirely different set of issues). Every extra one of him costs the state a fortune.

Mrsjayy · 14/08/2015 08:20

sirzy My sister works in assisted living and when she first started working they got women from a hospital that had closed down and she said these poor women were institutionalised she said it was tragic women in their 40s and 50s who probably were put away for Learning difficulties but were worse because of the institution

Sirzy · 14/08/2015 08:23

It's scary to think how recently that was happening. When my dad was there is was starting to move towards reintegration and "care in the community" but as many of these people have been there for their whole lives it was taking them away from everything they knew and must have been so scary for them.

Mrsjayy · 14/08/2015 08:30

Yeah people had only known hospital life and routine and were expected to cope and just fit in must be terrifying

DixieNormas · 14/08/2015 08:44

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DixieNormas · 14/08/2015 08:45

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