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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

to think this job offer is sexist bullshit?

76 replies

GermanHouseCat · 05/08/2015 20:40

I have a post in Overseas as this started out as a few specific questions about moving to Taiwan for DH's job. It has now become a bit of a circus and I'm looking for some views.

DH was approached about a senior job in an international company in Taiwan - it would be a big promotion for him (different company) and is a slight known quantity as he kind of knows the big boss already. It's a decent expat package with housing, flights home, schooling for any future DC etc.

He has now been formally offered the role, but the offer is on a tiered system based entirely around whether or not I move to Taiwan with DH. We had initially been planning for me to stay in the UK for a while, then get a job in my industry in Hong Kong and then finally end up in Taiwan in a few years full time when we're ready to have DC. We are confident based on our current and previous arrangements that this can work.

The hiring manager (himself an expat) isn't happy with this and wants me living there full time from the start. He seems to have a warped idea that women should be with their husbands and that anything else couldn't possibly work. As such, he has made DH an offer based on me moving. If I don't move, the offer reduces by about 25% and is no longer that great. The 25% certainly doesn't represent my current salary.

AIBU to think that a) a company would never demand that a husband give up his own successful career to support his wife, and b) that it is no bloody business of theirs anyway as long as DH is there and the job gets done??

Really upset for DH if this falls through as it is a fantastic career opportunity for him which he has been after for quite a while.

OP posts:

Original poster

GermanHouseCat · 06/08/2015 19:29

His benefits would be unaffected either way - same level of housing, same provision for schooling/fights/medical etc should he have family there or not. The only affected element is the salary, and he was specifically told it was because they "want" me there - ie he is being discouraged from moving over on his own.

Anyway, I've calmed down and am feeling less wound up about it today. We're considering both offers and he is going to speak to the hiring manager tomorrow to reiterate the gradual move etc.

OP posts:

BertieBotts · 06/08/2015 19:40

DH applied for a job in Germany while living in the UK. He was rejected the first time but the first person dropped out and they came to him as a fallback.

They later explained that they hadn't gone for him initially because they were concerned with his ties still to us (I was gf and DS was just gf's son) he wouldn't stay long term. In fact the first person had had no family ties but been homesick enough to leave, so they took a gamble and it worked out.

But sometimes people are sexist. I mentioned that I sometimes sleep until 12 to my doctor and she said "But who looks after your husband and son?!"

Tangerineandturquoise · 06/08/2015 20:22

Your DH is worth a certain amount to them- they want you there, so they add on a bit to make it nice for you. You don't want to be there- so they don't have to make it nice for you.

The reality is- whether you like it or not higher level roles especially abroad often involve entertaining and being entertained, the expectation being that the spouse will be there for at least some of it, that is how some business is still done in some places, hence the company want to make it nice for you to be there, probably in effect a salary for your contribution to work functions built into his, as well as all of the commitment issues etc.
From his manager's POV he may feel your DH wont be as valuable in the role, if he cannot entertain, whether you and your DH can or can't live with that is up to you.

I have male friends who have made sacrifices for their wives careers, in no way does that mean that you should for your DH, but it answers your question as to whether men would be expected to sacrifice their careers for their wife's career- it does happen.

RLRefugee · 06/08/2015 20:26

I'm probably going to get flamed for this but ime expats (male and female) are among the most sexist people you can encounter in your career. Because it's so bloody hard to keep your career as a trailing spouse (been there done that), expat families end up in very traditional family setups where one partner is basically wedded to the company and works insane hours, and the other does all the house stuff, childcare and socialising. Dual career families are extremely rare and the notion that you can (successfully) combine work and raising a family very alien. I've worked for expats before and their appreciation of things like having to pick up kids from school, leaving on time, or simply having to deal with things like grocery shopping or housework not existent. It makes for really unpleasant work dynamics.

Slightly tangential I know but just saying, IMO, the setup you describe is sexist

WhirlpoolGalaxyM51 · 06/08/2015 20:32

Maybe he could tell them that you have actually split up

Agree that if it were reduction in relocation package that would make sense but it's a salary reduction that's just not on.

"Split up", he can be red hot keen on moving to "forget" and throw himself into new opportunity, then you can rekindle your relationship on your timescale.

I'm joking obviously, I think what they are saying is appalling. Agree with PP who said it can be a shock when you get away from UK / EU with all the employment laws!

ditherydora · 06/08/2015 22:04

This is bizarre. What would they do if you moved with him for 2 months and then decided to live somewhere else on a temporary or permanent basis? Do they cut his salary? And how will they know if you are there all the time anyway. Do you have to turn up at his office?

lavenderhoney · 06/08/2015 22:20

It shouldn't affect his salary but it would affect his housing and private health, which would mean in effect he is coming as as a single person.

So he should be paid absolutely what he is worth and the benefits adjusted according. Which is fair and normal. He could hardly expect housing allowance for a couple when he is single. He could just say " yes, my dw is coming, I want allowance for a lovely 1 bed flat"

I left my dh and his company reduced his housing allowance. He freaked. But he didn't need a villa with a pool and staff quarters. He needed an allowance for a bachelor pad which by all accounts he is now very happy with.

alrayyan · 07/08/2015 05:25

RL absolutely right.
I am an expat of many years, mainly ME but also Africa and India.
The world is.so different to the UK and you have to toughen up fast. Also we are very out of date with UK rules about what is acceptable there. What seems sex ism to them is just just a clause in a contract to us, we take or leave it.
I am not trying to paint expats as woody wise.people. Some are but there are plenty of ignorant sex is, racist knobs as well.

alrayyan · 07/08/2015 05:26

worldly

KeyserSophie · 07/08/2015 06:18

Hi german. I replied to your post in living overseas so hope you don't mind me chipping in her too. One of the issues with Taiwan ( unlike HK where quite a high proportion of trailing spouses work- I do and most of my friends do) is that it can be very hard for TSs to secure work in the open market due to the language barrier. Therefore what I imagine the logic is in this structure is that the 75% is actually the 100% and the 100% is a 33% bump to compensate you as a couple for the loss of your salary ( which it doesn't but if they paid you out it sounds like that would more than double your husbands salary.if you're not coming, they don't need to pay that. The non- reduction of the benefits is a red herring because they won't actually need to pay for medical for you, schools etc so the cost is zero.

I think the question is whether as a couple you'll be financially better off with you in Hk working or you in Taipei not working, and I bet it's the latter. Therefore this is probably a non- issue and I'd proceed as you were planning.

KeyserSophie · 07/08/2015 06:21

Duh. Wrong way round. You'll be better off with you in Hk working is what I meant!

antimatter · 07/08/2015 06:36

How can they enforce you moving there within certain time? Is that going to be written into his contract?

If yes they should pay enough to cover your salary loss + any training you would need.
However not every kind of job and skill is transferable!

Duckdeamon · 07/08/2015 06:50

Your DH could challenge the tiered salary (rather than benefits) offer if this is different to usual company practice. Or seek to negotiate.

Not at all unreasonable to to want to maintain your well paid career and thus not want to accompany him or to set boundaries on this (eg location, package that enables visits etc) that mean his choices are curtailed. Many, many people - DC or not - are unwilling to accompany their spouse to a job far away or overseas (I'm one of them). Not a basis for guilt on your part or resentment on his.

If he declines the offer it's simply because the package offered wasn't tempting enough, shame, and he can seek other ways to progress his career.

CycleChic · 07/08/2015 07:07

Does he know the big boss well enough to question the difference in Base salary? Is it just the money that's attractive or could he use this as a springboard?

Morloth · 07/08/2015 07:32

I don't know. Whenever we have bee moved there has been a 'compensationary' element for the fact that I would need to give up my job and move.

We have also had to live in locatioms where I would not be able to work so have had a higher offer as a result.

I like money so never took it as sexist.

Northernlurker · 07/08/2015 09:24

I think it IS sexist because yes the higher salary is compensation that you won't be able to work there. However it's evidently NOT based on your actual earnings. It's a quite sizeable but still token amount that makes no concession for your higher earning power and designates you as 'the wife' rather than as GernanHouseCat. I don't think an expat lifestyle is going to be right for your set uo. I'd walk away.

Imlookingatboats · 07/08/2015 10:08

I live in Hong Kong, you say you want to work there.

Employers can (and do) to ask potential female employees of childbearing age to sign a contract agreeing to not get pregnant for a certain amount of years. If they do, they lose their job.

knittingirl · 07/08/2015 10:24

I haven't read the full thread, but you said you were happy with weekly flights from TW to HK - instead of "living" in HK for work and "visiting" your dh in TW each week, could you "live" in TW and weekly commute to HK for work? Amounts to the same thing, but the second way round you officially live in TW.

KeyserSophie · 07/08/2015 12:31

imlooking um, in HK it's illegal to sack pregnant employees and it's actually one area of labour law that's upheld- even applies to helpers who can almost be sacked on zero reason the rest of the time. I've never heard of anyone sign one of those clauses. The OP is going to work for an international investment bank so I'm sure she'll be fine.

Imlookingatboats · 07/08/2015 13:42

It was for Cathay. I was surprised myself. International company and all.

magratvonlipwig · 07/08/2015 14:08

I'm not seeing it as sexist, more as pro-family. They probably feel that with out you there his loyalties and time commitments may be torn, and they have probably dealt with this in the past with other expats.
Could he not negotiate and suggest the reduced package till you arrive then the other 25%when you join him?

KeyserSophie · 08/08/2015 00:16

Cathay's a local company. It's part of Swire, so that's slightly less surprising. Was it crew or an office job?

Itsthevibe · 08/08/2015 02:26

Oh right. Ummm, fairly senior office job, not head of department but role requiring reasonable amount of responsibility. (I name changed yesterday btw, for a change).

Original poster

GermanHouseCat · 08/08/2015 11:16

Hi everyone

Sorry to disappear - back and have read the comments. Thanks so much for the tips and suggestions - especially Sophie for commenting on both threads!

Looks like DH is going to take the job. They are giving him the full package on the promise that I will join at some point, but not immediately. Meanwhile I am discussing with my boss options to spend some of my time working out of our HK and Singapore offices (I work for a global bank) which may or may not be approved.

OP posts:

lavenderhoney · 08/08/2015 20:53

Or, of course, you look at your package for a family move to HK and he is the one that commutes weekly.

Take the best deal. And expect change.

You might have DC in 2-5 years and want to come home and have memories of your DC and also for your DC with people you have known forever, like your family. Not a bunch of expats hanging round for the money and you won't see again/ hear from again as they all all move on.

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