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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to be horrified at the behaviour in bohunt school

999 replies

SEsofty · 04/08/2015 22:13

Just watched the programme about Chinese teachers in uk. Whilst I appreciate that it is reality tv and thus exaggeration for effect I was still horrified with the apparent number of children who were talking in class.

I'm not that accident and went to a very normal school but talking whilst teacher did simply didn't happen. I don't agree with the Chinese methods but talking whilst someone is trying to teach you is simply rude.

OP posts:
Happy36 · 05/08/2015 16:24

BertrandRussell Good for you. I have attended some professional conferences in this area so I accept I have witnessed more incidents than most. It´s deeply unpleasant when a school´s SMT drops its rules to allow for one unreasonable parent. Unfortunately, in my experience, it is relatively common, more so in state schools where heads are reluctant to exclude students.

TheNewStatesman · 05/08/2015 16:30

mrlock.wordpress.com/2015/08/04/chinese-school-are-our-children-tough-enough/

'"Behaviour – I thought this might have been nailed years ago by Mossbourne, led by Sir Michael Wilshaw in Hackney and proving that the most deprived pupils can behave immaculately, but apparently not. It is fine to expect pupils to listen and behave and make this a pre-requisite of learning. Too many schools still believe that lessons need to interest pupils and this is how we get good behaviour. It’s nonsense. It’s an abdication of leadership: the ethos of a school is set by senior leaders and enforced by everybody and if this ethos is one of strict discipline the school is more likely to be successful. As one of the Chinese teachers said “without discipline you don’t learn well”.

'The programme makers clearly focussed on the least well behaved pupils, but the immediate switching off, outright defiance and lack of grit really got to me. I am not even a fan of that word, but both that and ‘growth mindset’ came to mind several times during the programme.

'The pupils even knew this. At one point Rosie said “in China aren’t the children like really really well behaved” and Angelina finished her sentence with “and we’re not”. Another pupil talked about it being fun to push the boundaries when teachers are strict, and another complained that it was unfair that her behaviour had been corrected with a (minor) sanction without a warning.'

mummytime · 05/08/2015 16:30

"There is also a tendency to see school as being all about you and your feelings, which is fine for children of three but not for teenager"

Sorry but teenagers are among the least emotionally resilient people, and are definitely less socially competent than an 8 year old if not a 3 year old.

Now how much this is a result of British culture, I'm not sure.

After all British culture does work on the belief that some people are cleverer than others.
I'm not sure about Chinese culture but in Japan there is a belief that everyone can achieve. This could be part of the reason our youngsters are less resilient and take things personally.

mathanxiety · 05/08/2015 16:45

This is a result of faulty child rearing, and perhaps this stems from the deeply held belief that some people are cleverer than others. I think you have hit upon a very important point.

I am not sure that people give it much thought, which is a pity. It is not all about classroom management or tweaking school leadership. The name of the game is teaching resilience, giving children the tools to get over setbacks.

Praising end results (the product of learning or the product of effort or the performance) as opposed to effort, organisation, concentration, etc., (i.e. encouraging the development of the tools of learning) will always result in children who are not resilient, take things personally, are crushed by poor grades and resentful towards school.

MiaowTheCat · 05/08/2015 16:46

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Merrylegs · 05/08/2015 16:49

One child said 'what's the point of learning this'. What she was really saying was 'this is boring because I don't understand it.' She will have had four years (at least) of being taught in a set. Here the kids were being taught the same thing at the same pace in an all-ability class. Perhaps in her own ability set going at a different pace she might have been able to understand it better. I'm not a fan of schools courting TV fame but I am really missing the evidence they are 'up themselves'.

noblegiraffe · 05/08/2015 16:56

No, the "what's the point in learning this" is just standard distraction technique in maths classrooms whether they understand it or not.

BertrandRussell · 05/08/2015 17:02

My own bright, incredibly well behaved year 9 tried to argue that there was "no point" in studying Shakespeare because he was "old fashioned, boring and not a very good writer". He did this because he is a 14 year old smart arse. An extra essay set by his teacher getting him to justify himself and a trip to The Globe changed his mind.

Kids say this sort of thing. In all schools.

mathanxiety · 05/08/2015 17:05

The idea that a student can challenge the professional judgement of a teacher as to what is taught maths in general or proving a theorem as opposed to just applying it is what causes the judgement that they are up themselves.

This is behaviour that goes beyond grumbling, if they genuinely feel their thoughts on the matter should be taken into account.

However, I think that sort of comment also reveals that students are unsure of their grasp of the topic. Students who are engaged in their learning and on top of things tend not to try to limit what they learn. Students who see a good reason to be in school in turn tend to work hard at mastering topics.

For those who are questioning teachers' judgement, even if they were content with 'This will be on the final exam' as an answer to 'What's the good of this?', that limited response could keep them committed to mastering the material. Students who have mentally checked out of school, who consider themselves failures already, with nothing much to look forward to after school is over, tend to question the utility of school in general and tend not to even try.

MrsDeVere · 05/08/2015 17:05

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

sallyst123 · 05/08/2015 17:16

I think the same. I would be so embarrassed if my kids behaved the way those children did on that program. & I would have serious concerns about sending my kids to a school where kids with that level of disrespect for others is the norm

noblegiraffe · 05/08/2015 17:26

To be fair to the kids who didn't understand the trig lesson, trig is level 8, B grade GCSE and as such, only usually taught to the absolutely brightest students in Y9. We've been given the impression that these 50 students are rather more mixed ability, and therefore presenting some of them with trig is going to be way beyond their usual level of work.
I also noticed the teacher putting common trig ratios on the board, such as tan 60 = root 3. Currently students are only expected to memorise these in further maths GCSE (it's not expected for A-level). Students will be expected to know them for the new maths GCSE which is why they could justify teaching them to Y9 (as they will be the first to sit the new GCSE) but still, for their first lesson on trig for some of those kids they might as well be asking them to learn mandarin and calling it maths.

Jux · 05/08/2015 17:30

I was amazed by stories dd told of some of her science classes in Y9 amd 10. Boys were picking girls up and carrying them about the room, there were fights, constant talking. Teacher might as well not have existed. I was v concerned as dd had initially been expected to do really well in science, but when the good teacher left, a crap teacher arrived and so classroom anarchy took over. School insisted all was good, head of year 'inspected' and all was fine (sat in room for half an hour in one lesson). DD gave up on science Sad

pretend · 05/08/2015 17:30

The school I teach in goes through to 18. The KS2 kids I teach go through to KS3 & 4 with us.

Behaviour standards don't change, in fact, they get stricter. We often say to our Yr6 kids "wait til you get to secondary, they won't put up with XYZ!"

A strict school with good behaviour standards remains that way all the way through.

leftyloosy · 05/08/2015 17:43

I left this term after 12 years as a secondary teacher. The school I taught at for the last 7 years was a 'good' school according to ofsted. I haven't seen the programme but saw the adverts and would say it is very representative of life in a normal state school. Most of my time was spent on low level disruption, talking when I'm talking, messing around etc.

pretend · 05/08/2015 17:45

But surely you just nip it in the bud? Why aren't those kids who are constantly disrupting the class being sent to do their work elsewhere? Why do one or two children get to affect the results of 30 children?

mrsnewfie · 05/08/2015 17:51

Easier said than done. Especially if there's an ineffective SLT or asking for help labels you as incompetent.

Happy36 · 05/08/2015 18:16

pretend as mrsnewfie says, teachers by themselves don´t have much power to punish students. You can tell them to stop, warn them, move them to sit in a different seat, send them outside to the corridor (you can only send one student out, though, so not a solution if more than one is misbehaving) and you can give up your own time, if you don´t have a meeting, duty or lunchtime lesson, to give them a detention. You can also e-mail or call their parents.

But some students are happy to be sent out every single lesson and don´t mind coming to detentions, especially when it´s freezing cold outside, or just don´t turn up to detention. And often parents aren´t really that bothered that their children are chatting - they´d be much more shocked if their child, for example, swore at a teacher, kicked a chair across the room, or something like that, for which the school would punish them much more harshly but actually has much less effect on their overall learning than repeatedly messing around and failing to pay attention during many, many lessons, which also impacts negatively on other students´ learning, where a one-off, more serious "incident" would not (or not to such an extent).

What needs to happen, and unfortunately doesn´t happen in a considerable number of schools, is that repeated low level disruption such as chatting, results in a much tougher punishment from a more senior member of pastoral staff, such as an after school detention, Saturday detention, internal exclusion, parent meeting. Therefore, the message sent to the students is that frequent low level disruption is ok, and results only in a minor sanction.

Hammondisback · 05/08/2015 18:24

I'm a secondary school teacher, state sector. Most teachers insist on silence while they are addressing the class. To me, it's the number one rule, as pupils learn so much more that way. Also, it's polite! TBH, I believe good manners and respect for others to be even more important than any academic achievement. You can usually tell the children whose parents taught them to be courteous. If that was done at home (the correct place for teaching good manners IMO), teachers only have to reinforce it, which makes teaching and learning much easier and more effective. Well done, ilovechristmas1, for sorting out your son's behaviour, I wish more parents would do the same.

HmmAnOxfordComma · 05/08/2015 18:33

I couldn't understand why they didn't already know trigonometry in year 9 as ds first encountered it in yr 8 (top set). But I forgot that this was a mixed ability grouping and, of course, it was probably filmed earlier in the academic year.

BlackbirdOnTheWire · 05/08/2015 18:33

I've not watched the programme but Red and others are deluding themselves if they think disruption never happens in private schools. They just don't get told of it - not in the pupils' interests, and the school knows full well that the vast majority of smug fee-paying parents will say "we pay you to sort that out". My father has great stories from school 60 years ago, my siblings and I have a fair few we wouldn't want our parents to know about.

I was going to give an example but am now wondering if Huffdonga was at the same school...

No chair-throwing or chewing gum, in general, but plenty of chair kicking, subtle removal of board rubbers, organised switching of materials ("but Sir, you told us to bring xxx text book...") etc. I'm not convinced teenagers are so very different and I am really dreading the day my DC turn 13...

noblegiraffe · 05/08/2015 18:34

I've sanctioned children several times for low level disruption only for the parent to complain that I am picking on their child.

heyday · 05/08/2015 18:42

I thought the behaviour was probably much better there than you would find in most inner city schools. Some of the kids were definitely showing off for the camera. Bad mouthing, talking, shouting, swearing, fighting, charging mobiles in class is fairly standard in a lot of secondary schools. Its hard enough trying to keep control of the class even in primary schools. The kids generally know that there is little that the staff can do to them so they carry on with their unruly behaviour. The world is definitely going to become much more competitive in years to come and kids in this country might, one day, realise that a decent education is a way to a better, more prosperous future.

nokidshere · 05/08/2015 18:49

My teens ask me all the time "why do we need to know this" but I would not be happy if they were saying it out loud in class especially after I have already explained to them.

Im not sure that Sitting in on a child's class would be effective - the majority of children would behave very differently with their parents looking on!

I'd like to be a fly on the wall though Grin

pretend · 05/08/2015 18:53

Blackbird "my father has great stories from 60 years ago"

60 years ago?? When gentlemen went to Oxbridge to get "an honourable third"?

A lot has changed in sixty years! My god I'm amazed someone would think that how things were 60 years ago is somehow still relevant!

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