to be horrified at the behaviour in bohunt school

[SEsofty]

Just watched the programme about Chinese teachers in uk. Whilst I appreciate that it is reality tv and thus exaggeration for effect I was still horrified with the apparent number of children who were talking in class.

I'm not that accident and went to a very normal school but talking whilst teacher did simply didn't happen. I don't agree with the Chinese methods but talking whilst someone is trying to teach you is simply rude.

If you get your impression of the programme from mumsnet, its a bit like the Blind Men and the Elephant!

I thought Bedales would be comparable because, as well as being close, I thought it was non-selective. But, apparently, even they have entrance tests; though, indeed, it has a very different ethos from Chinese school.

Mehitable6 I have no idea why you are asking me about Bedales. I made not comparison between state and private schools - or indeed between "progressive" private schools, like Bedales, and more traditional ones. You may be right but personally I have no knowledge from which to comment, do you? The point I was making was that it is parental and teaching staff expectations and requirements which should produce good manners and, in this school, where there are none, or very few, of the social or economic problems apparent which are often used to justify poor behaviour and a relaxed attitude to it, it is difficult to see why expectations are not higher, or if they are, why they cannot be fulfilled.

Sophie was a pain in the arse but I reckon the truly dreadful students would not be persuaded to put on a tracksuit and spend 12 hours a day at school.

Bedales wouldn't need or want the Chinese method though.
The fees and ethos mean their students don't need to worry about exams in the same way as typical children. Finding a career isn't an issue in the same way as some anonymous child of middle class parents. Bedales has it's own exam system which apparently is highly regarded.

I overheard a group of them chatting about their work placements. No shops or garages for them - most were at TV production companies including MTV. Different world.

"Bedales wouldn't need or want the Chinese method though."

And Bohunt does?

"overheard a group of them chatting about their work placements. No shops or garages for them - most were at TV production companies including MTV. Different world."
I do hope this is ironic..........

Bohunt wants its pupils to get the best grades in recognised exams though. It's top 200 anyway so not worried about Chinese methods anyway. But essentially they both want the same thing.

Not sure what you mean about ironic.

Ibwatched the programme. I wouldn't have say any of the behaviour was horrific, fairly standard low level disruption. Hate to think what they'd make of my school if they thought that was challenging!

I've taught at a private school and have always said that what makes the difference is behaviour and parental involvement. The parents are duly involved and if a studernt does misbehave the parents take it seriously. We've had a parent disputing whether a teacher should have used the word ’arson’ as their child was only attempting to set fire to something, and didn't actually succeed.

I've taught Chinese students in Higher Education. The students I have met were not a random selection. They were the ones with wealthy, organised parents (wouldn't have been able to come if they weren't) and I saw absolutely nothing to suggest they were three years ahead of their UK peers. It was a mathematical discipline too. It's a generalisation, but they also tended to have problems with working independently and plagiarism in greater numbers than their UK counterparts.

I think that I misunderstood you then CatWithKittens - I didn't realise that you were saying all UK pupils were were bad mannered and poorly behaved.

I agree that Bedales wouldn't want or need Chinese teaching methods but then neither do any other schools!

I think that Bedales work placements show the general unfairness - it all boils down to who you know.

Mehitabel6 I really think you need to read things more carefully. I was not saying that all UK pupils are bad mannered and poorly behaved - simply that some of the excuses often given for bad manners and poor behaviour were not applicable to Sophie and those of her classmates who were badly behaved. As I pointed out it was a minority which was badly behaved and there was another small group who seemed to be very sensible in their approach to their maths master. I strongly suspect that if good behaviour was insisted upon both at home and school children would learn better and be happier better balanced adults. It is our fault as adults, whether parents, teachers or both, if children grow up to be Sophies or worse.

Interesting comments from Bohunt HT in this week's TES. He felt that the style of teaching prioritised knowledge over understanding and that 12 hrs of 'copy down and learn' was not conducive for perfect behaviour. All of which I agree with and if I observed an hours lesson like that I would say it was unsatisfactory. I gather from the article the difference in the way the pupils behave with him next episode is remarkable. Interesting viewing, actually made me look forward to going back to work in September.

I think it was the fault of adults that the Sophies were allowed to behave like that for the sake of good TV. It was easy to put down rules and talk about consequences before she was allowed to appear. They knew she was like and that is what they wanted. You didn't even need that- she could have been told 'any bad behaviour from you and it will be cut'.
The cameras just ran- we can all bet that lots of 'boring' footage was cut.

My dcsschool (grammar) is largely chalk n talk. They have short periods though - 40 minutes, so don't have to concentrate too long. I don't get why folk think the math s being taught was difficult. It was following a simple process. Anybody could do it.

People who are good at maths often find it hard to understand why those who aren't find it difficult.

Mehitabel, I think your whitewash attempts wrt Sophie's behaviour are undermined by the remarks of the HT as quoted by Tryingtokeepalidonit -- '12 hrs of 'copy down and learn' was not conducive for perfect behaviour'.

I also think his comment shows that he was (rightly) conscious that the behaviour reflected poorly on his school.
If he had allowed the documentary to go ahead in full knowledge of the student selection criteria then I suspect he tolerates classroom disruption and rudeness and had not anticipated the volume of negative comments.

I think what also shines through from his remark is the reason the Sophies of Bohunt and elsewhere continue to get away with what they do. He points to mitigating circumstances. If I were a teacher I would feel extremely undermined by this attitude -- basically he is saying that classes have to be entertaining or students can only be expected to behave like toddlers at the cinema.

I agree with CatWithKittens here -- schools need to expect higher standards of behaviour, and parents need to do their job properly.

'And you think it would have been different at Bedales school, that is just down the road..?'

The thing is, who cares what it is like at Bedales School?

That is 'small pond' thinking. Bohunt should be aiming higher.

I still maintain that they had an agenda for the filming and they filled it. They could have easily picked children who would done as they were told,but it would have been boring.
Sophie was easy to solve, had they wanted to. She wanted to be on TV. I would have told her it was zero tolerance and the moment she kicked off she was out of the room. Personally I wouldn't have considered having her on the programme in the first place.
That is not what they wanted.
I do care- it feeds people's worse prejudices about comprehensives and I don't think they would have meekly taken it at Bedales.
As a parent there is no way that I would expose my DC to TV cameras.

I don't think anyone is "whitewashing" Sophie's behaviour. She was obviously an attention seeking brat. Show me a school that doesn't have a few 13 year old attention seeking brats.

What really pisses me off about this is the way people are focussing on her and condemning comprehensive schools out of hand rather than any paying attention to the vast majority of the 50 who didn't act up. And also ignoring the fact that most 13 year olds would find 12 hours of talk and chalk lessons very difficult indeed to deal with.

"I think what also shines through from his remark is the reason the Sophies of Bohunt and elsewhere continue to get away with what they do. He points to mitigating circumstances. If I were a teacher I would feel extremely undermined by this attitude -- basically he is saying that classes have to be entertaining or students can only be expected to behave like toddlers at the cinema."

THIS. Look, people, seriously, we KNOW that there are Sophies at every school. It's the mealy-mouthed way that the school was reacting to Sophie that really stood out here. No wonder she behaved like such a horror.

"And also ignoring the fact that most 13 year olds would find 12 hours of talk and chalk lessons very difficult indeed to deal with."

Fidgeting and losing concentration would have been a bit more understandable, but that girl was obnoxious. No excuses, sorry. I would be mortified if my daughter acted like that.

I think what the HT was trying to explain was that behaviour is not like that when they are being taught in a more progressive way. I highly doubt that any UK grammar school teaches the majority of lessons using chalk and talk. I observe lessons in 20/30 different secondaries a year and I have have yet to see a purely chalk and talk lesson in any type of school. Whilst the topic might be introduced in that way group/ paired/ independent work follows. Plus engagement activities are used almost universally these days.

I also think the vitriol about Sophie is uncalled for, I might come across badly if edited highlights of 60 hours of filming of me were shown.

My dd went to a very traditional grammar school. Even if all the lessons had been talk and chalk (which they weren't) it still wouldn't have added up to 12 hours a day!

Is everyone assuming that Sophie is even worse in lessons where she is taught in the way she is used to? If so, on what basis?

Sorry posted to soon. I have just read Tony Little's (HM of Eton) excellent book 'The Intelligent Person's Guide to Education' in which he writes about how he and a group of classmates at 13 deliberately decided to "subvert" a new teachers seating plan by swapping places whenever the teacher looked away. He talks about how teenagers can "scent blood" and push their behaviour to "the limits and beyond". He also writes about how some pupils sent to him are 'truculent' claiming "It wasn't my fault". It is a great read but would upset the people who think that private education automatically eliminates all ills of the classroom. As someone who teaches in the state sector I would highly recommend it to anyone interested in education.

It is what 13yr olds do, Tryingtokeepalidonit. The more intelligent children are experts at that sort of behaviour - much more difficult to deal with than the child who just kicks off in an obvious way. It was why I brought up Bedales- it was this attitude that 'it could never happen in a private school'. Although I was then told it wasn't what was said.
A school like Eton is not going to have children just sitting waiting for input - probably why the Chinese like it- they realise their system is lacking in many ways.
The programme wanted to throw the Chinese teachers to the lions! If they hadn't they would have briefed them on the school behaviour policy, warned them about Sophie, told them what to do and had SM back up.

As a supply teacher I was always warned about specific children, given strategies to handle them and told where the back up was if I couldn't handle them. That is in good schools.
Poor schools told me nothing but then said at the end of the day 'I see you came across Jack!' They were the ones that I never returned to.

Have people read any school stories? In the Chalet School they pass notes and make animal noises. At St Clare's they pretend to be deaf and at Malory Towers they pretend there's a kitten somewhere in the classroom and spend the entire lesson searching for it. At Kingscote they convince a student teacher that one of their number is lost and search the grounds for her. And the less said about Jennings and Stalkey and Tom Brown the better.

Or is it just that they are all posh, so it's "youthful high spirits", rather than disruptive behaviour?