to ask if most of you realise the tax credits cuts affect people who work, not the unemployed?

[ssd]

yes, that's right, people who work get tax credits, you must work to get them

the cuts affect people in work, not people who dont work

I'm fed up reading here about the lazy unemployed who will get their tax credits cut...err no they wont.

[TheOnlyOliviaMumsnet]

AHEM

[ssd]

what?

[lokole]

Whilst I wouldn't have taken the welfare reductions as far as the Government, reductions in welfare spending had to be part of the fiscal consolidation programme. Incentivising people to work 16 (or 24 as a couple) is not desirable for the economy and so reductions in tax credits are not a terrible idea although I wouldn't have taken it as far as Osborne has.

[BathtimeFunkster]

Weird, so it's OK to lecture people about being scroungers if you mean it, but not if point out to one of the lecturers that they are a flaming hypocrite?

[BathtimeFunkster]

Incentivising people to work 16 (or 24 as a couple) is not desirable for the economy

Isn't it?

Don't we have a problem with underemployment?

[ssd]

how did Bath's post break the talk guidelines? am very confused here. I thought her/his post was very thought provoking, but not malicious at all?

[AndNowItsSeven]

Triptrap your post re tax credits after children become adults make no sense.
Do you really believe that parents profit from CTC after the costs from raising a child have been accounted for?

[Anniesaunt]

lokole a lot of the people being hit by the cuts and being called lazy scroungers are already working full time or more. Why can't people understand why these people are upset at being called lazy scroungers.

[bearleftmonkeyright]

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/campaigners-call-for-30hour-working-week-to-allow-for-healthier-fairer-society--and-more-time-for-fun-9284434.html

www.neweconomics.org/blog/entry/10-reasons-for-a-shorter-working-week

Reasons why a shorter working week is becoming inevitable, predicted by John Maynard Keynes in the 1930's.

[LittleMissStubborn]

My family receive CTC, I work full time in a job that required a degree, my dh stays at home because one of our dc has autism and therefore one of us is his carer. Currently we do not claim ca. Funny enough I still pay tax, so most of my ctc 's is what I am paying out in tax anyway - (if we want to think in that kind of way) Many of us claiming tc are already working hard, my degree was never going to led to me being a big earner, but it is a vital cog in the wheel of life.

We will lose money from next year and then totally when UC is rolled out (redundancy payments can do that you see)

Anyway, it is annoying that the simple answer given is I should simply earn more/work harder (cos obviously I don't already) or that I shouldn't have been so stupid to have had a child with a disability

[CerealEater]

FoolOnTheHill, nursery workers will get the new minimum wage as will nannies as they are employed. There won't be a drop in the need for childcare, it will increase as more people are forced to work.

Childminders are self employed so of course won't get it, no different to any other self employed person. It's down to the person to make sure it's a viable business. Considering as a childminder you can offset gas, electric, food, craft items and have no childcare costs of their own there there's no reason to not easily make minimum wage and a lot more.

Red, I think they will stay. There is a lot of support for the current system to be changed.

[tabulahrasa]

"nursery workers will get the new minimum wage as will nannies as they are employed."

Only if they're older than 25...

[bearleftmonkeyright]

Bowing out now, cereal eaters last post has done it for me as will not answer the hard questions. Can't have any sensible discussion without looking at the bigger picture. There needs to be changes, but an inevitable increase in childcare costs due to a higher wage bill with a decrease in ctc will mean getting out the door to work will be impossible for many.

[TripTrapTripTrapOverTheBridge]

AndNow I have no idea. It's not an opinion. It's what myself and various others have heard and seen in other people. Once again I'll mention MSE, people do post there in a panic because they are about to lose their child related benefits, including tax credits and will now struggle. They are often questioned on why given it's meant to support the child and the child will no longer be at home so their expenses will go down BUT nonetheless apparently that makes no difference. I guess it al comes down to what people do with the money they receive, like it or not not everyone spends every penny of the money they receive on the kids, I'd hazard that not a huge amount do to be fair. However, it's technically family money and people will use it as such including getting a larger home then refusing to downsize when the extras stop and they can not afford it any longer.

Not everyone who gets tax credits is actually 'in poverty' too. I think that's important to remember.

Bath where is anybody lecturing anybody and calling them scroungers?!

[bearleftmonkeyright]

Oh man, was there any need for that trip. I have not got personal, you have. Hiding this thread now. I was not trying to point score, merely pointing out the flaws I could see in your argument which has mainly been supported by the anecdotal and the personal. I actually thought it was interesting, completely read that wrong didn't I

[TripTrapTripTrapOverTheBridge]

Bear I apologise, I appear to have muddled a few different posts into one and replied as if they were all yours. That's my very tired mistake aided by a rather stupid phone.

I am sorry (I've also just woken up after ds had a little sleep!(

[bearleftmonkeyright]

Ok Trip have some

[TripTrapTripTrapOverTheBridge]

I've reported my post there! I would go and pick the other posts apart but I think there is little point with the way people jump on a wandwagon and don't actually engage in the conversation or try to understand viewpoints. I have a feeling I know who I was really peed off with though :D

[Oswin]

Tax credits cut from next year. Yet the living wage wont be fully here til 2020. Makes fucking sense don't it.

[RedDaisyRed]

ssd, not sure what you mean. They way to help those less well off is ensure we can continue to function as a state and pay for the welfare state. So these measure help those less well off. If instead you do a Greece, as labour would have done, they you cannot pay anything to anyone. Secondly, if people have to up their hours or move or both work full time that is in the longer term good for them as they can come off tax credits altogether as they get promotions and work their way up. Again that shows these measures are ultimately caring and help people.

[BathtimeFunkster]

Tax credits cut from next year. Yet the living wage wont be fully here til 2020.

The "living wage" that won't be fully introduced for 5 years was calculated as such based on tax credits at their current level.

If you cut the tax credits, it is no longer a loving wage.

[ssd]

Ok, red. I must have read you wrong.

[Goshthatsspicy]

The tax credit cut, what is happening exactly? Are we talking about the two child max /new claim?
red what happens if no promotion ever comes? What if no more hours are ever available?
I understand why those in favour of self reliance *are, but it seems shortsighted. It doesn't work in every situation.

[ssd]

with tax credits, the income disregard is coming down, by around £1400, so the amount you can earn is lower than the previous amount before you start being penalised for earning.

there is a calculator somewhere that shows the amount you will lose by , from next year

the 2 child thing is for anyone having a new baby from 2017 onwards, kids born before that dont count