Wheelchair vs pushchair has been done to death - how about wheelBAG vs pushchair?

[EmmaWoodlouse]

I saw this scene on a bus today and wondered what you lot would think.

An old lady sitting in the seat immediately behind the wheelchair/pushchair space with a big old-fashioned wheelbag taking up quite a lot of space. Younger woman gets on with two little girls, one in a pushchair and probably only about 1 and a half at the most. She tries to get the pushchair into he remaining space and can't quite do it. Older lady makes no attempt to move the wheelbag even a little bit (if she'd pulled it closer to her they could probably have fitted both in). Young mum doesn't challenge her as far as I could hear, but says "oh no, I'll have to fold it up" in a very flustered way, starts detaching bags of shopping from the pushchair and putting them in the luggage rack thing at the front, then releases DD2 from the pushchair and tries to fold it up with wailing, hot, unhappy DD2 sort of tucked under her arm, which really isn't working. Finally a completely different woman sitting near the front offers to hold the toddler and she manages to get it folded and stowed away before having to carry find somewhere for her and DC to sit further back. Young mum then has to go through the entire palaver in reverse when she needs to get off. Fortunately DD1 is big enough not to need physically holding/helping too, otherwise I think in her position I would have cried!

To me, the old lady was being rather selfish. There's no official policy that wheelbags can be put in that space but I don't see why not, as long as someone doesn't need it for one of the designated uses. The woman with the pushchair was very clearly struggling and nobody, including the driver, suggested to the older woman that she should help or move. (I was further back and couldn't do much.) I've seen this old lady around before and I don't think she has any mobility issues that would have prevented her moving back a row or moving her bag a bit.

Does anyone think she should have been allowed to take up all the space like that?

Just read the full thread.

I think everybody just needs to learn to be tolerant of one another in these situations.

I use public transport a lot and have seen plenty of rude/awkward/entitled behaviour from users of strollers, wheelchairs, bags and mobility scooters. It isn't just one group in my experience. I think some people assume the worst of other passengers and immediately get defensive or arsey when it appears their needs can't be met when they first board. If everybody needing to use that space works together during busy times life would be much more pleasant. Offer to move if you can, somebody help the elderly person move their trolley or store it in the rack for them, hold the baby, collapse the pushchair or hold bags for parents struggling to do it all, offer to help scooter/wheelchair users manoeuvre to make more space if it can be made.

If everybody did this and didn't stand/sit around gawping or tutting it would be rare that someone genuinely struggled or couldn't get on a bus!

How on earth is a trolley bag parked in front of someone sitting on a seat the same as them needing a wheelchair to get around? Unless her arms were affected in which case how was she pulling/pushing it in the first place? It's s convenient way of carrying your shopping not a wheelchair and I've never seen a sign on a bus that says wheelybag space. Ageism has bugger all to do with it.

And yes I'm aware that sometimes they're used for support but that still doesn't make it impossible for it to be moved a little nearer its owner.

wheel bag lady should have moved it.

pram lady should have politely asked. It's no different to asking the driver for your ticket.

The fact everyone sat and watched and failed to help the poor pram. lady was the most unreasonable. of all. what's wrong with people.

that said bags hung over the handles are bloody dangerous and perhaps investing in a back pack would be better. that can be put in the luggage rack then the buggy easier to fold.

I'm fairly confident that this particular old lady is not too weak to move her bag about half a metre.

However, I'm coming round to the idea that the other one should have asked. I can see why she might not have wanted to - the old lady's reluctance to move it voluntarily might have felt like an aggressive gesture to her - but there would have been no harm trying and maybe if the driver heard her ask, he would have intervened if necessary.

I think the person who came out of it best was the lady who offered to hold the toddler. It was kind of her and she got wailed at for it (by the toddler, not the mum - toddler was really quite upset by then).

I'm just glad when my DC were little I lived within easy walking/pushchair pushing distance of the town centre shops! They were in a double buggy at one point and that would have been an absolute minefield.

Of course the person with the wheel bag should have moved it but for whatever reason, she didn't. The passive aggressiveness of the mother sounds irritating and martyr-ish. She should have just asked.

Our buses have separate spaces for wheelchairs and for buggies. This means the single deckers no longer have luggage spaces and the ones on the double deckers are only suitable for a couple of small shopping bags, certainly not a wheely bag. And despite using 4 buses a day I cannot remember the last time I saw a driver leave his cab to assist a passenger.

Wheelchair trumps everything else, pushchairs and prams trump wheelbags/ shopping trolleys. Although mobility aids ;ike walking frames obviously trump prams.
Our buses clearly state that when the designated space is not needed for a wheelchair it can be used for prams and buggies. It does not mention shopping trolleys (trollies? Either looks wrong now!) or suitcases or anything else.
In any case I would have said 'excuse me please' and if the woman had refused to move her stuff would have offered to do it for her. What would have happened if she'd refused that depends on when the next bus was due, how much of a mood I was in, etc.

I think the bigger problem is the fact many of the front/ easily accessible seats are taken by able bodied people who won't actually move, or help others, there'd be far less problems if people did. I'm currently in plaster, so using buses where I'd usually cycle, drive or walk. However my ability to stand is not hindered, just get down the aisle of a bus or up the stairs. And there's been numerous occassions I've sat at the front, but stood when someone more in need gets on, reassuring whoever it is I can stand as well as ever, just find it hard to crutch or hop down the aisle. And a few occasions when it's been crowded, once I in my cast stand up, it's obviously shamed a few able bodied people front seat hogging who then move to the back or stand themselves for others more needy.

It's occurred to me today that it's just possible (given that I was halfway back and wouldn't have heard anything that was said quietly) that the pushchair woman
i did
ask, quietly and politely, and then got flustered when the other one didn't move. I don't think so, though, from both of their body language. I think she just waited and then had a moan.

And the other - even less likely - possibility is that they knew each other and were acting out some kind of ongoing feud. I think I probably over-analyse these things...

Good point, lurked. I always go to the back, or on top if it's a double decker (I love it anyway), just because it's easy for me whereas another person might find it difficult or need the extra space.

The notice on the bus i was on recently had a sign which said please give up these seats for people less able to stand and had a picture of an elderly person and a small child.

I have asked if it is ok to move someone's shopping trolley loads of times, I'm afraid if they ignored me or didn't let me move it, I would just move it anyway - but no-one has ever done that. I have been ignored and told to fuck off when asking someone to move their pushchair though!

If the world was a better place, the old lady would have moved her bag, if all it would take was an inch or two. Or a casual observer would have intervened and said to the lady "shall I put this up there for you?" so that the mum could have parked her pram and kid.

Not sure whose needs were greater in that situation, but both people's needs could have been met if the bus driver or other passengers were prepared to help.

I just came home after yet another harassing venture on a bus in North London. I have recently moved to North London and have had many horrid experiences usually at the hands of disabled and elderly on the buses due to having a very small push chair and being pregnant. I am over 7 months pregnant and have in the past three weeks experience what I feel to be some sort of backlash. One old woman hit my child because my 2 year old in the push chair bounced her legs up and down. Another woman pushed us out of the way when a 43 bus stopped directly in front of us in Angel (to accommodate entering the bus quickly), hitting me with her cane as she waved it in the air screaming, "I have a cane--I go first!". Another elderly man started hitting me because I offered him the inside seat as I hold my child's push chair when the drivers brake frequently/hard and through the more speedy turns. In short, there is what I find to be a lot of generalized misogyny and resentment of mothers on buses which I find completely unreasonable.

I didn't even use a push chair until my child became too heavy to carry and my pregnancy too delicate to carry the weight. And the push chair I bought is tiny: 18 inches wide. Yet, instead of being shown a modicum of respect by fellow passengers, I have faced some rather bitter people who are clearly resentful of the space our buggies take and even for the fact that I stand my ground with bullies. I have seen this time and time over from my experiences to those of other mothers.

So today another incident occurred. I was on the bus as per usual sitting on the outside seat holding my child's push chair with my feet as where I live the bus route is windy and the braking frequent and fierce. A woman around 55 or 60 with a gigantic cart came on board and asked me to move on the inside seat. I declined in a kind way and explained that I had to keep a hold on my child's push chair since I had already had two experiences of the push chair tipping over given the braking of the buses. She insisted stating she was elderly and that she had her cart. I pointed out that her sitting where I was would only block the aisle and that I had actually had this discussion with TFL about these gigantic carts and that TFL's final word on the matter is that these carts must be put in the wheelchair/luggage area (given there is no wheelchair obviously). Than another person offered her a comparable seat and she refused. And then another did the same and she refused. Instead of observing this person's recalcitrance to accept available seats or to go up two seats on the left where a perfectly single seat with space in front for her metal trolley was, two passengers started to harass me. I had to repeatedly explain to them that I was not going to put my child at risk simply because this woman was fixated on my particular seat and I pointed out that she had refused several offers for neighboring seats and that the one seat appropriate for her to sit and fit the cart in front without blocking the aisle just ahead on the left, she had not even attempted to use. It was a clear case of this woman bullying me. Since I had already experienced the previous acrimonious individuals in previous weeks, I followed the TFL advice after the harassment continued for over 20 minutes: I said I was happy to call the police since what they were doing constituted anti-social behavior. As soon as I said this, the "old" woman stopped this bullying although the mass bullying effect already had caught on and I was insulted by yet a third person. I found this all quite insincere and thuggish and have noticed that in North London especially there is a concerted discrimination towards women with push chairs.

I strongly think that this anti-pushchair and anti-mother mentality needs to stop now. The push chair is not a luxury. I have only used it when absolutely necessary (only since my child turned two) and I think women are being done a disservice treated as if we are abusing "the system."

There are entitled, selfish idiots of all ages and on all forms of transport.

As a wheelybag user, though, I do have to defend them against the haters. They're much more than just a convenient way to carry my shopping - I don't drive and my arthritis is very extensive and advanced for someone of my age (went straight from carrying my groceries in a buggy to carrying them in a wheelybag). My hands, my hips and my back are absolutely reliant on it. Of course, I am faultlessly courteous and charming in how I wield it on public transport...

As an aside, it does amuse me how on these threads there's always a few posters who assume that the buses in their locality are the blueprint for buses everywhere (with luggage racks etc).

That happened to me once. I just looked at the old lady and said "Do you mind if I move this over slightly so I can fit the buggy in?" she didn't say anything, so I did.

Another bus I was on with DH and no kids, a wheelchair user got on, we were stood near the wheelchair space (habit). An old lady with a really heavy wheel bag just rolled the wheelbag in and went and sat down (wheel bags have no breaks and are really unstable) this one must have had several cans in it, because DH had to catch it in mid flight before it landed in the lap of the wheelchair user. Wheelbags need to be held and not left in the wheelchair space IMO.