To hope there is a special place in hell for these women...

[SylvanianCaliphate]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-33674221

I know I know men do it more but it really fucks my brain to know that these women even exist

Somehow it's worse.

[Warning from MNHQ - links to Norfolk child sex abuse case]

I am a bit confused by this case. It seems 9 people were tried and 6 acquitted. And they all had the allegations against them made by the same children. I'm not really sure how the jury decided that the children's evidence wasn't enough to convict in some of the cases (including one where a child made a direct allegation of rape) but the other 3 have been convicted. Was there further evidence against those 3 like photos, messages or emails which incriminated them?

There also seems to be some suggestion of wrongdoing by a social worker and documents being tampered with.

There seem to be scant details on the case and it's all a bit vague and confusing.

Forget all the "women as carers / nurturers", what does it say about your attitude to men if you think that?

Do you all think your male partners / father of your children is inclined to abuse?

The severity is no different whether it's a man or a woman, however as a society we do still uphold women as nurturers rather than abusers, and men are generally regarded with more suspicion than women.

Just imagine a thread: "there's an old man who hangs around the park watching the children, he doesn't have any children or a dog or anything and he tries to talk to them." the response would be "call the police." whereas if the same thread were written about a woman the response would be "I bet she's lovely, how sad she probably misses her own children/grandchildren etc you should encourage your dc to talk to her."

In truth we shouldn't be viewing anyone be they man or woman with suspicion. Instead we should bring our children up to be aware of their bodies and the boundaries that surround them, and to feel they can speak out if they are uncomfortable. and that depravity doesn't have a gender.

If you think it's worse when women do it, you're effectively saying that is just something men are prone to do, and we can't really expect any better from them.

I categorically do not accept that.

For some reason, we - society - do accept that men are more likely to be violent and abusive. We all know that many, many, many men are not violent, nor abusive, so why the fuck do we accept and turn a blind eye to the many occurrences, and judge women so much more harshly for identical horrors?

It's really important that we move on from suggesting its so surprising that women can also do this because that's part of why so many victims of females find it harder to speak out.

Assuming it's still up and running there's a great website called making daughters safe again that has a lot of info & links to stats of female abusers etc

I don't mean at all that it's worse when women do these things - I just mean it's more shocking. And I absolutely accept that that's the wrong response - illogical and yes, probably sexist. But it's the outcome of years of conditioning.

Re the role of Social Services and the tampering of documents (they apparently deleted leading questions that the children had been asked) - that's just gobsmacking. They could have completely buggered up any chance of a conviction with that.

What Hassled explained much more eloquently than I.

I know that women do it, I know that being less shocked that men do it is sexist and I also know that it is dangerous to assume that a woman is unlikely to be an abuser and therefore approach the idea with a pre scepticism.

I know and agree with all of these things.
My gut reaction and honest response is it's somehow worse.
A bigger betrayal for the victims a bigger betrayal for women.
Maybe it's the social conditioning but I wish worse on these women for their betrayal.
I see how that can be viewed as excusing men to a degree or lessening their blame but that's not what I'm getting at.

What these women did was disgusting, but it's no more (or less) disgusting than if men did it. There are, unfortunately, nasty evil pieces of shit out there, both male and female. They should be judged on their crimes, not on their sex.

I think that part of the reason people are unwilling to believe that women can be abusers is that we as a society often regard female sexuality as essentially passive. We accept that men go out and "do" sex and don't necessarily connect that to love, intimacy, etc but we find it hard to accept that women have aggressive sexual urges. We think "well, a woman just wouldn't do that ".

Its far too limited to suggest abuse isjust about a perpetrators sexual desires tthought its much more to dowith power and being in control of someone more vulnerable.

Absolutely awful.

You need to put a trigger warning in your OP.

I'm braced for a pasting, but i recently discussed this with a senior social worker involved in child protection. Her partner is a probation officer. Her position which on the basis of experience I'm prepared to bow to, is yes there are women who commit sexual offences such as these but they are invariably under the influence of a man. They're not paedophiles operating alone or with other women.

An example she cited was the Portsmouth nursery case where Vanessa George agreed to take photos and the more extreme they became, she said "you'll have to put a ring on it for that."

It struck me as beyond pathetic that a woman could be so utterly desperate for male approval that she would think that way, and that was the value she would attempt to extract - a demonstration of emotional commitment.

Perhaps the best way we can protect our children is to ensure our daughters' self esteem is so high that they cannot fall under the influence of deviants.

If that's the case ^^ then the best way to protect our children is to tackle the men doing it, or the boys they once were. Not the small number of women falling under the influence of deviants.

I don't understand how it is worse. There are plenty of women who are horrible, awful and cruel, and plenty of men who are.

I findthis pretty depressing tbh. Loads of men convicted along with her but she is the one who gets the headline.

Unless the whole thing was her masterplan and they just did what she said then I don't see why the fuck she is being demonised more than the rest of those bastards.

And besides, children are too young to have been socialised to think women are 'safer' than men.

They just think adults are meant to look after them, so the betrayal is surely just as traumatic, regardless of whether it's a man or a woman...

On the site Imentioned above there are many first hand reports of victims sexualy abused by their mothers as well as other perpetrators- they almost always talk about how it was the female perpetrators in charge, instigating the abuse (and often talk about how much crueler she was). Any daughter of an npd mother knows they are the ones in the more powerful role, just add in sexual abuse and the same happens when its npd women.

I've spent dacades working with abuse survivors in so many settings (kids in care, mh etc) as well as being one myself, and frequented online forums for abuse survivors and manned helplines, women certainly don't appear to be any less sexualy abusive from my pov. Certain reports about sexual abuse of an organised nature tend to suggest it's more frequently the women in charge. (Reports of rital abuse etc)

Equally repulsive and evil behaviour, whether committed by men or women.

I think the only reason it is more shocking to hear of a female abuser, is that the vast majority of sexual abuse is perpetrated by males. At least, that has always been my firm conviction - of course it's effectively impossible to gather accurate statistics about occurrence, for obvious reasons. But I would be staggered to learn that women sexually abuse as often as men do.

Should add, my impression isn't just based on gut feel - I did work for over a decade supporting survivors (I don't do this any more). Obviously, my impressions are subjective and just based on my experience. But I am convinced male sexual violence is much more common than female.

i was sexually abused by a woman as a child and I still find it more shocking when a woman is involved in these cases. There is no point in pretending that things like this happen is often. Whether it's sexist or i've just been desensitized to seeing men doing things like this I don't know. I would really doubt 'research' that says women are as likely to sexually abuse children as men.

Of course it's equally horrific whoever does it. And people listing off known female psychopaths only further highlight the point. We know of people like Myra Hindley, Rose West etc because everyone found it so shocking that a female committed those crimes. Men do stuff like that all the time and we don't even hear about it. Their crimes became so famous because they were women.

I think the official stats (that are Canadian & American) say that 15% of peadophiles are women, and that rises to 30% when there's more than one perpetrator involved. That's that only larges scale stats collected and I think they should still be available on or through the links section on the making daughters safe again site. That's what's known of course though, and as there's a v significant reporting bias of course as its estimated considerabley less victimsof women speak up than victims of men. While I have never kept track I'd say over all the victims I have felt with are as much victims of women as men, but that's possible in part due to the more extreem nature of abuse victims I have felt with on line, in real life its probably similar to the 15% -30% the stats show up. The actual studies are v much worth looking at though, I think it's 100s of thousand whoare women, sso while much less % wise still way way more than the view its just one or two freak occurances. I think it's around 50-100 women put on the sex offender registry in England & wales as well each yr- maybe this women gets 'unbalanced' media attention but many slip under the radar.

I think it often can depend on what you class as sexual abuse also- my mother never actually touched me in that way, but knowingly handed me over to be raped, photographed it, closed the door as I begged for help, told me that was the only reason she had me- facilitating sexual abuse is a form of it. She was most definitely not a victim of a man, she was the alpha always. I've worked with countless kids in care who tell a similar story - including mothers who object raped them to prep for the male abuse, or who sent them off to be raped by the drug dealer every few days under age five, or who watched as it the child is raped by the husband before having sex with him herself and forcing the child to watchwhile she llaughs at them.

Daughters of narsassitic mothers forum, wounded healer journal forumall have nunumerous accounts where the female abuser is the driving force, and our childhood journal seems to attact victims of mothers for the most part.

QuestioningStuff "Men do stuff like that all the time and we don't even hear about it."

That makes it sound as though you almost expect men to be abusers. As if it's virtually normal to do things like this if you're a man.

Bloody hell permanent .

And questioning .

There's a great site female sex offenders (I think its just called that) that compiles most of the (very scarce) research, some of which shows female sex offenders make up 48% of all sex offenders. Pearson's 1997 study shows 1 in four offenders are female, American humane associations records show that between 1973-1987 20% of substantiate sexual abuse cases hadfemale perpetrators. theres tonesmore, all with flaws no doubt- i'm not suggesting this is 100% acutrate but I hope it shows its more than just a few weak women who couldn't help that a male pervert made them do this to a child. (I have known of cases where this is definitely the case also).

Frick sorry for so many typos, joints are very bad today

Grunt well I'm not sure why that's what you took from my post but that's not the case. It's just facts. Murders, rapes and child abuse happens a LOT and is usually carried out my men. That doesn't mean all men do it.