to think that 'it's what they do in Europe' should be excluded for all arguments and discussions.

[Pipbin]

So far in the last few days I have read threads where people have stated that in Europe they:

• have a much better attitude to renting and therefore it is more common to rent and the need to own property is a very British thing.
• that hitting another car when parking in perfectly normal in Europe and everyone accepts it and the British are just too uptight.

In previous threads I have also read that:

• in Europe they don't start school until they are 7 and they have the better maths and literacy results.
• children in Europe all have a glass of wine with their meals and are allowed to do as they please in restaurants.

Now I'm not denying that any of this is true but I am fed up with 'in Europe' being brought up as an argument.
Europe is not some magical mystical land, it is not one county, it is a group of different countries and cultures that includes our own.

Saying that in Europe they tend to rent doesn't help someone who wants to own their home and the attitude in this country isn't going to change quickly (mores the pity in my opinion).
Saying 'but it's what everyone does in Europe' doesn't help someone whose car has been damaged by someone who can't park.

It is a lazy argument and I think that like Godwin's Law we should name it.

Interestingly damascus, it was only that little strip of blue that stopped Hitler invading in WW2.

as for

"Geographically, we are very much 'in Europe' - continental plate anyone, climate, etc"

since when is the number plate indicative of anything?

"Financially, we are 'in Europe' - did you miss the bit about ...blah blah"

Did you miss the bit where we did not join the Euro?

Hans Holbein was a Londoner - what of it?

You have a lovely few criteria that don't really make sense

Spain - not invaded by the Nazis, therefore not in Europe
Sweden, not in the Eurozone, therefore not in Europe

I meant continental plate as in techtonic plate. However, now you come to mention it, the little EU number plates you see remind us of that we're in Europe.

Hans Holbein is just one example of many where our culture has been influenced by what you might call Continental Europe. I could cite many many more

I think your reading of history and current affairs has to be way off base to not consider ourselves part of Europe

since when is the number plate indicative of anything?

Trying to work out if this comment is serious...

Coffemark

I think Damascus was referring the the continental plate that is part of the geographical make up of the planet earth that the UK is part of, not car number plates.

but Spain and Sweden were different since their leaders sold them down the river didnt they?
Wasnt the Spanish Civil War like a dress rehersal or something?
Anyway it is very interesting to discuss our different views, you might even change my mind!
btw I have read extensively, which leads me to different conclusions all the time!

oh LOL continental plates! silly me!

Coffee, if that's the case, I think there are two major reasons to think of ourselves as part of Europe

Our history for as long as we know (but let's stop 2000 years ago) is one of our links and interrelationships with other European nations and groups, such as the celts, anglo saxons, normans, and expressed through evnts such as the 100 years war, Spanish Armada, William of Orange's 1688 revolution, Napoleonic wars, WW1, WW2, etc, etc.

Second, we are a member of the EU. Every single member of the EU is in Europe - Colombia or Vietnam are neither members or candidate members.

Also Scandinavian countries don't strike me as anymore European than the UK- Norway isn't even in the EU and the countries are very different to say, Spain or Italy- in fact they have quite a bit more in common with UK than the rest of "Europe"

I'm one of your culprits from the parking thread OP.

I didn't talk about hitting cars - that's a bit of an exaggeration, isn't it? - I talked about nudging bumpers from time to time being acceptable to me.

Maybe others talked about their approach to driving being akin to a demolition derby. I didn't notice that they did though.

I didn't say it was a standard practice in Europe and that all other Europeans regarded British people as uptight about their cars, but I accept other people might have.

Nudging bumpers is just what I do. It's nothing to do with aping other cultures.

However, I lived in Florence for a while in the late 80s. It was courtesy for people to leave their handbrake off when parked so other drivers could nudge them into position. No idea whether that's still the same.

My friend's Dutch grandfather did think British people were uptight about their cars. But he was a terrible driver and sadly not just in parking situations, so I wouldn't claim he was representative of an entire continent's drivers.

I see what you mean about the history as we are taught it.

Not convinced about the EU membership - China is joining next year...(jokes)

Coffee, I think you're teasing me - are you saying that the Norman Invasion, and the Spanish Armada never happened?

of course not, I am just saying that in the teaching of history, some things are given more airtime than others....

Well, isn't this avoidance of doing anything that anyone else does what makes you liddle British people so very charming and eccentric? No?

Where would Europe get its laughs if not for the, well, English, with your strange and surprising ways?

Not Greece anyway, that's for sure.

Ps continental plates closed over the Iapetus ocean, bringing Scotland on the North American side together with England on the other. England is more European than Scotland geologically speaking. Scotland is similar geologically to the Ariondack belt down the east cost of the U.S.

The main line of continental collision and contact is roughly the Watford gap, I kid you not, running up south of Yorkshire. Now you know.

No no no no, Spanish civil war a "dress rehearsal?"

The effects have only really worn off in the Basque Country in the last decade. They still haven't plastered over the bullet holes in San Sebastian's town hall.

Yes, Guernica was "given" to Germany as practice (in the most simplistic of senses)

but calling the Spanish Civil War a dress rehearsal is akin to reducing WW2 to Coventry Cathedral.

I don't understand how you can say coffee that the UK is not in Europe, in that culture and geography aren't connected. Is N.Ireland not in the United Kingdom? What about ROI? It has the Euro yet is an island, where does it fit in? Malta? Cyprus? Iceland? Plenty of countries don't have the Euro. The Eurozone isn't Europe. I don't understand the culture comment at all. British culture is different to Spanish culture, Spanish culture is different to German culture.. Can you clarify?!

Cyprus, Malta & Ireland are part of the EU . They are separated from mainland Europe by water but are in the Euro zone. Norway & Switzerland are geographically part of mainland Europe but are not in the EU or the Euro zone. Gibraltar is on mainland Europe but not in EU or Euro zone. Monaco & Andorra are not in EU but are in mainland Europe and use the Euro as a currency. Iceland is not in mainland Europe, the EU or the Euro Zone. I am sure there are many more variations between the different countries which make up Europe, and indeed many other ways to decide what constitutes being in Europe or not. Therefore it is silly to suggest Europe is all the same, and that the UK are not part of it because of the channel and the currency. YANBU.

In the little corner of Europe where I live now none of those are true.
Although, official school only starts when children are 6. Children can attend pre-school since they are 3, but places are only guaranteed from when they are 5.

I agree that looking at what is done elsewhere may be useful (if true), but that Europe is not one entity. Countries are as different from each other as each from the UK.

x-post Zorion!

I always think that "European" children (by which I mean France , Italy, Spain and Portugal - and I think that is how it is often -wrongly - used) are generally miles better behaved in restaurants and elsewhere than in UK.

In fact I have only ever heard it said that way round.

I have only ever seen British and American children behaving badly in restaurants. And now I am including German, Scandinavian, polisgt etc children in my generalisation of goodness

As for citing "in Europe " all the time, I agree that gains you nothing . It is not all one country as mentioned .

The fact that renting in other countries is common is neither here nor there.

As said above More, European countries actually like children and that is why they behave..........

So Coffee, in your world there is Africa, Asia, the Americas, Australasia, Antarctica, Europe and the UK

Swedish school results had plummeted in the last decade following the introduction of free schools and less state intervention.

I notice on MN that Swedish education is held up as some kind of model. It clearly isn't.

Also, yes - kids "in Europe" (here we go!) start school later but they are often in fairly formal pre-school settings before that where they often do reading and maths. It's not all galloping through corn fields and learning through play.

" So Coffee, in your world there is Africa, Asia, the Americas, Australasia, Antarctica, Europe and the UK "

Is there? oh right, thanks for letting me know, that is what I love about this forum!!

" As said above More, European countries actually like children and that is why they behave.......... "

Some European countries only like able bodied perfect children...is that a good thing too?

For example you might notice that in Greece there are very few or even none, depending on the island/area children are disfigured or have Downs.
Is that a good thing too?

, children WHO are disfigured.....

Also, many "European" schools, eg in Spain and Greece, do not 'do' SEN, they just have clever children and 'stupid' ones...
Is that a good thing ?

As somebody who has just come back from a weeks holiday in Spain where the hotel was 90% full of Spanish families, I can truthfully say that not all Spanish children are miles better behaved in restaurants than UK children.