To think science teaching in the UK is a joke?

[wol1968]

Background to this: I have a 13-year old DD who is academically, shall I say, no more than OK. There are no real issues in her report, she's a sociable, sensible and well-liked girl. Middle set for absolutely everything. In no danger of coming top of the school and taking a first from Oxbridge as far as I can make out at this stage. Best subjects so far, Geography and English. Also quite interested in science, but not a natural mathematician.

So I was thinking about my own (rubbish) career non-choices and dead ends, as a relatively able but general arts-oriented student (think Latin, English, couldn't do MFL effectively as have hearing impairment). And realising that actually, I was always really interested in science myself. But despite doing my level best and getting science O-levels (somehow, despite a dodgy syllabus and even more dodgy teaching) I could never take it further because, well, you need to know your stuff and if the syllabus is ropey you're gonna struggle later on. And now I look at the range of careers and see that if you drop science too early you are really, really missing out.

I'm afraid that my daughter, like me, is going to get channelled into a restricted choice of careers because she's not quite 'technical' enough to go the triple science route at GCSE (they only offer triple science to the top of the top set), which will put her on the back foot WRT further study of scientific subjects. I'm not talking about forcing her to try and become an engineer or an astrophysicist if she's not suited to it. But we're increasingly living in a world where scientific knowledge is power - think health choices, medical treatment, knowing where your electricity comes from...and I think the school syllabus is beyond inadequate when it comes to teaching kids this sort of stuff. And there are gender issues here as well.

beaufortBelle - you thinks there's an issue with Science teaching in the UK?

Can I respectfully inform you that our teacher training, curriculum and subject specific teacher status are very different in Scotland?

You cannot teach any subject up here unless you have the requisite degree credit and are registered in that subject with our GTCS.

think not "thinks"!

Can somebody explain double and triple award science please?
In my head it means you do a combination of two or three of Physics, Biology and Chemistry but I did O'Levels in a school that did each subject individually.

I'm sure there are many world class scientists educated in this country who would disagree with you

Double means combining the three disciplines into exams worth only two gcse's

Separate sciences is just that three separate exams for three separate subjects and three separate gcse's

You also used to be able to do just one single science qualification meaning it's worth one gcse

There are two ways of doing it - one is as you describe.

More common is for each subject to be split into 3 'bits' - let's call them B1, B2, B3; C1, C2, C3; P1, P2, P3.

Single award = B1, C1, P1

Double award = B1, B2; C1, C2; P1, P2

Triple award = B1,. B2, B3; C1, C2, C3; P1, P2, P3

I think.....

Hermione - people that are home educated manage without teachers. Even Patrick Moore managed by reading textbooks at home by himself when he was too ill to attend school as a child.

Thank you That's a bit clearer!
But it does worry me that children aren't being allowed to do single sciences if that's the case. I was good at one and terrible at the other two. I was able to do my one good subject through to A Level and drop the other two at 14. If I'd had to do two sciences, I would have done none at 16 let alone 18.

And Fwiw, dh is a scientist. He earns four times what a teacher earns, even a HoD. By Y11, his teachers commented how much he'd taught them that year. Dh was self-taught from books (and bits from family friends and the OU).

Giddy' no choice in England now. Govt says all do science. Then introduce EBacc measure. Only two science slots, but must be filled by dual award or by two of biology chemistry physics computer science.

Point taken Salmotrutta

Looking back to when I was at school, you could take Biology, Chemistry or Physics, or a combination of any two, or all three if you wanted to. They were treated as separate subjects.

That was a much better idea; and having done O-Level Biology myself, I was a bit taken aback at the level of GCSE Biology even at triple science level when my dc took it this year. Nothing like the depth or breadth of what I learned for O-level (I still have my schoolbooks - I checked!).

I'm not sure the teaching of science would be greatly improved by allowing children to drop parts of it at 14. The national curriculum made all 3 sciences core subjects that had to be studied to 16 for a reason.

Even in private schools that don't have to follow the national curriculum, only taking 1 or 2 separate sciences is rare.

Amazons I didn't realise computer science had been added in. Interesting!
Rafa as I say allowing me to drop two of my worst subjects and just continue with the one of my sciences that I liked took me through to keeping a science at all. If I'd been forced to do all 3 then my very good O Level results would have been much worse. I would certainly only have done arts A Levels.
Do engineers need biology? All three are needed for medical studies but not necessarily other stem subjects.

Well, having double science GCSEs hasn't held me back on my medical degree so far...

Some schools don't offer triple science and Universities recognise that. You know she will still study the three sciences? I wouldn't stress too much but just concentrate on getting the best grades she can in her double award if that's what she wants to do. AA in Double Award is better than BCC in triple science.

I studied a science subject at Cambridge. Some people on the course had taken Double Award for GCSE...

At our school you could not be entered for different papers for triple science - so you couldn't sit top paper (A - B grades) in Biology whilst sitting middle paper (A-D grades) in Physics, for example. I was good at Biology and terrible at Physics. Ended up having to take both top papers, risking failing physics if I didn't get a B, in order to allow me to get an A in biology. I scraped a B! Not sure whether that system has changed now but relevant to giddy's post.

Yes johnny that would have been the scenario I would have been in. But probably with less chance of scraping the B! It might be irrelevant to my dc but I cannot see the logic. Why force children to study something they really dislike?

in NI pupils can still take any combination of the three sciences to full GCSE (eg keep on Biology & Chemistry, drop Physics), or Double or Single Award.
OP have you checked the syllabus to see what's actually taught? I can't really work out what your problem is.

I think schools should have to offer separate science. Not because a dual holds anyone back, but I don't see why a scientifically minded child shouldn't get the choice of another Gcse in a subject they enjoy.
I think too it should be taught at primary more.

Something like OCR Twenty First Century Science might suit your DD OP. I don't know how much it has changed since I taught it, but it seemed geared towards creating a scientifically literate general public.

In terms of holding your DD back from taking sciences further, what you say about her ability in Maths seems critical.

That would probably depend on which way you were taking your 3 science GCSEs and school policy, littlejohnny.

Don't know if it has changed but up until whatever the last change was you could either do core, additional and further additional or biology, chemistry and physics. The first definitely wouldn't allow you to do that, I don't see any reason why you couldn't with the second. It might cause timetabling issues though which would make it unworkable.

The reason I dislike the triple science system is that for a child who is interested in science to be cut off by the smallest % and is capable but because some schools run a strict number of places they are left with double it then impact their enthusiasm and self belief. I know at my teenagers school it is one class and 30 places and some years they have many who get the aquired mark but still get dropped. They get a pep talk on how 2 A* is better than 3 Bs but I know some of DCs friends went from enjoying science to feeling they where not good enough for science and switched direction.

A friend of DS got level 8b at maths year nine and in the top five children but cut from triple science and then got dropped from top maths as you need to be in triple science to get into top maths.

rafa/johnny AFAIAA, under the new GCSEs (not started yet for science, first cohort will be next year's Y9 I think) there will be no tiers in papers for any subject.

giddy- computer science is valid beach subject from GCSE 2016 (i.e. current Y10 going into Y11 in September)

I've seen that some universities offer science foundation years for students who don't have the 'correct' qualifications.