To think science teaching in the UK is a joke?

[wol1968]

Background to this: I have a 13-year old DD who is academically, shall I say, no more than OK. There are no real issues in her report, she's a sociable, sensible and well-liked girl. Middle set for absolutely everything. In no danger of coming top of the school and taking a first from Oxbridge as far as I can make out at this stage. Best subjects so far, Geography and English. Also quite interested in science, but not a natural mathematician.

So I was thinking about my own (rubbish) career non-choices and dead ends, as a relatively able but general arts-oriented student (think Latin, English, couldn't do MFL effectively as have hearing impairment). And realising that actually, I was always really interested in science myself. But despite doing my level best and getting science O-levels (somehow, despite a dodgy syllabus and even more dodgy teaching) I could never take it further because, well, you need to know your stuff and if the syllabus is ropey you're gonna struggle later on. And now I look at the range of careers and see that if you drop science too early you are really, really missing out.

I'm afraid that my daughter, like me, is going to get channelled into a restricted choice of careers because she's not quite 'technical' enough to go the triple science route at GCSE (they only offer triple science to the top of the top set), which will put her on the back foot WRT further study of scientific subjects. I'm not talking about forcing her to try and become an engineer or an astrophysicist if she's not suited to it. But we're increasingly living in a world where scientific knowledge is power - think health choices, medical treatment, knowing where your electricity comes from...and I think the school syllabus is beyond inadequate when it comes to teaching kids this sort of stuff. And there are gender issues here as well.

[ErrolTheDragon]

teacher - that's why a lot of schools do the triple in the same time as a double for the top set(s), I suppose.

DD's school - a girls' grammar so this wouldn't be applicable everywhere - has them all doing triple science but then if in yr11 a few who were struggling can drop one.

I suppose if there weren't inevitable constraints on timetabling and resources, allowing more to start triple if they wanted, and then drop one subject if particularly weak, or drop the unit 3 on all of them to make it double would be ideal.

[Salmotrutta]

Sorry for de-rail OP!!

[Salmotrutta]

Sorry there were no MFL jobs tadjenny - I take it you used myjobscotland as well as TES?

[teacherwith2kids]

"teacherwith2kids what justification does the science department give for not even offering triple?"

Essentially that by teaching double to all, every student gets 5 option blocks for GCSE - DS, for example, is doing 2xMFL, 2x Humanities, 1xpractical [Music]. As a school where, despite being a comp, almiost every student stays on to do A-levels, they feel it is better for a student to have a really broad range of GCSEs, and to take 3 sciences at A-level, than to specialise in Science early, reducing the other options by 1.

I don't buy this. I wish they did triple. But it doesn't have the knock-on effects one would expect - plenty of A-level scientists, good science teachers, plenty of people going on to read science at university.

[tadjennyp]

Salmo. Sorry to derail thread. Dh was offered a job in Stirling, but as I am a German specialist with French and Spanish we didn't think I would be able to get a post so he turned it down. This is a shame, but it has been completely borne out by the complete lack of MFL jobs in the area.

[SheGotAllDaMoves]

teacherwith2kids what justification does the science department give for not even offering triple?

And what do the science teachers think?

[Salmotrutta]

tadjenny - if a school couldn't fill a place they would have to get by using supply (often retired teachers) or jiggling timetables etc.

They are not allowed to have a non-specialist covering a subject for longer than 4-5 days (think 5 is maximum) if someone is off sick for example.

If they really couldn't get anyone then I guess they would look at subjects on offer - or possibly look at an off campus approach where pupils might do Higher X at different school and be bussed there? It sometimes happens with Advanced Higher but not ideal.

I've never experienced a situation where they couldn't get anyone to cover a specialist subject - yet!! But then again that's just my experience.

We do have quite a few early-retired teachers who go on supply lists.

And yes, some LAs probably offer relocation allowance.

[teacherwith2kids]

"I wouldn't be remotely surprised that schools that only offer double, find it even more difficult to recruit excellent science teachers."

This was exactly what I feared about DC's school (otherwise very happy with it). However I think the excellent and very popular A-levels in science (apart from Maths and history, amongst the highest numbers of pupils for individual subjects) mitigate against it - certainly have never had any complaints about the quality of the Science teachers there.

[ErrolTheDragon]

Back in the days of O-level, lots of girls dropped sciences entirely or only did biology. While obviously some schools now do better than others, at least that can't happen now.

[tadjennyp]

What would a school do in Scotland if it couldn't get a specialist teacher Salmotrutta, just not offer Physics or an MFL for example, till it could find one? I did notice in the TES this year that some schools in Moray were offering relocation allowance.

[SheGotAllDaMoves]

I think it is shocking that some schools only offer double science to their pupils no matter how able.

It's tantamount to not valuing science.

I wouldn't be remotely surprised that schools that only offer double, find it even more difficult to recruit excellent science teachers.

[Salmotrutta]

wol - it's not really a political point (more historical) that Scotland has a very different educational system to the rest of the UK.

Different exams, different degree lengths, different teacher training/NQT training etc.

On a tangent, I'm always amazed that in England a non-specialist can teach a particular subject - that's not allowed up here unless you can apply for professional recognition (old dual registration) from GTCS and prove you have enough degree credit ti teach two subjects.

Anyway, sorry for the segue!

[derxa]

I teach an 85 minute Science lesson every week in Primary, as does every other teacher in the school I work in.
I'm not saying science isn't taught and I'm sure science is taught well in your school. However it is not seen as the priority it was when the science SAT existed in its universal state.

[MaidOfStars]

I think that the top of the second set is a nicer place to be than bottom of the top set

It's a phenomenon known to psychology.

People who excel at second tier universities do better in life than those who flounder in top tiers.

[wol1968]

Some interesting points here. Thanks to those who explained how the science GCSE awards work, and it's reassuring to see how many have gone on to science careers with double science GCSE. (Not that I'm saying DD will, as it's up to her, but it's nice to know the option is there).

(BTW I honestly didn't mean to offend any Scots/NI here as I had no idea at all how different the qualifications were. Yes I should have said England in the header and consider myself corrected. I'd rather stay out of the political debate there, if you don't mind - not really my area!)

Yes, I do have a few hang-ups from my past and am anxious not to pass these on to my daughter, hence sorting out my thoughts on here first. No, I have not been down the school demanding to know why she isn't top of the class for everything. I shall just concentrate on encouraging her to do the best she can, knowing she's perfectly capable. She did tell me that the teachers have said that it's just as possible to get an A* in the second set, and if I'm honest, I think that the top of the second set is a nicer place to be than bottom of the top set.

Thanks all.

[MaidOfStars]

I did double science, three science A-levels, a science degree and a science PhD. I am now a research scientist.

As far as I remember, our school only offered single or double awards. So I got the highest I could achieve, if you see what I mean. If the highest achievement these days is a triple award, it may be that this is what is necessary to go on to science A-levels (and beyond).

Scientists stay in research even though it is often poorly paid and permanent contracts are hard to obtain because they enjoy it...Golden handshake schemes to attract mathematicians and scientists into teaching haven't had much effect

This is true. I'm an academic scientist and the pay is fine - people sometimes think we should earn more based on our "thinky qualifications" but compared to the general population, it's not bad. Honestly, I might sell my soul to teaching, but it would have to be a purely financial move and I'd need a huge salary to do it. These are currently not on offer. And that doesn't make for a great teacher!

[ApignamedJasper]

Op, I did double science GCSE, got reasonably good marks but not an A* student.

For years I didn't go into my real area of interest because I thought I was too stupid to make it in a science subject.

I've recently completely a science course at college (with almost exclusive distinctions) and am going on to study a science degree.

Your DD should study what interests her, if that's science then great! If she's struggling then she can always ask for help and most teachers are willing to help those who really want to learn. Double science is plenty for going to to study science subjects later if that's what she wants.

[spinoa]

I think the problem is that teaching is so badly paid, so the best scientists go into research and industry earning a huge amount more than teachers do.

This is not really true. A scientist with 10-15 years post PhD experience working in a university is often on only 40k or so and may well not have a permanent contract. Such a person could easily be earning the same in teaching and indeed they could be earning substantially more by that age by taking on SMT responsibilities. Scientists stay in research even though it is often poorly paid and permanent contracts are hard to obtain because they enjoy it.

Golden handshake schemes to attract mathematicians and scientists into teaching haven't had much effect.

[teacherwith2kids]

"Science SAT was abandoned and science teaching in English primary schools has also been abandoned."

Two comments here:
a) I teach an 85 minute Science lesson every week in Primary, as does every other teacher in the school I work in.

b) I had my first ever science lesson in what is now called Year 8 - I had no science teaching except for a tiny bit of 'nature study' in primary, and skipped Year 7. I went on to study science to PhD level.

[Meechimoo]

I think the problem is that teaching is so badly paid, so the best scientists go into research and industry earning a huge amount more than teachers do.

[HarveySchlumpfenburger]

The maths definitely has tiers. And I'm assuming that science will have too, since the new guidance is that student's can't be entered for mixed tiers in the same science subject.

[derxa]

Science SAT was abandoned and science teaching in English primary schools has also been abandoned.

[DoesItReallyMatter]

I've seen that some universities offer science foundation years for students who don't have the 'correct' qualifications.

[AmazonsForEver]

rafa/johnny AFAIAA, under the new GCSEs (not started yet for science, first cohort will be next year's Y9 I think) there will be no tiers in papers for any subject.

giddy- computer science is valid beach subject from GCSE 2016 (i.e. current Y10 going into Y11 in September)

[Timetodrive]

The reason I dislike the triple science system is that for a child who is interested in science to be cut off by the smallest % and is capable but because some schools run a strict number of places they are left with double it then impact their enthusiasm and self belief. I know at my teenagers school it is one class and 30 places and some years they have many who get the aquired mark but still get dropped. They get a pep talk on how 2 A* is better than 3 Bs but I know some of DCs friends went from enjoying science to feeling they where not good enough for science and switched direction.

A friend of DS got level 8b at maths year nine and in the top five children but cut from triple science and then got dropped from top maths as you need to be in triple science to get into top maths.