To ask everyone to eat less meat and meat products?

[Breadandwine]

There are 3 reasons I eat a plant-exclusive diet:

1. I feel I'm healthier (I became veggie to avoid BSE - and my osteoarthritis has been stopped in its tracks since I went vegan)
2. Animal welfare issues (I went vegan after looking at the inevitable cruelty involved in the meat and dairy industries)
3. Global warming/climate change (the single most important thing anyone can do to fight GW is to go vegan - the world's livestock industry contributes more to GW than does transport!)

Before global warming reared its ugly head, I was quite reticent about my veganism, only talking about it when I was asked. But now that our children's and our grandchildren's future is threatened, I'm a lot more vocal.

And now there's me and the Pope on the same side - who'dda thunk it?

Wow EvansOvalPies, thanks for that insightful and thoughtful comment on my post which was trying to explain the connection between eating meat and Cecil.

That was a bit harsh!

I can personally see why people connect killing animals for pleasure and killing animals to eat, because in their experiences it is the same. That's just their experience though, on a broader worldwide scale, eating meat or dairy IS essential for survival and is not just for pleasure. Take for example the Maasai who drink blood and eat raw meat. In harsh landscapes where there is often a shortage of food or where there are difficulties in getting a varied diet, everything you can get is essential. Maasai people are now one of the lions greatest protectors and they would not equate killing for food and killing for pleasure as the same thing AT ALL.

Gast - thanks for that insightful and thoughtful comment on my post which was trying to explain the connection between eating meat and Cecil.

You are most welcome. (And of course, there is no connection. At all)

Just because you can't see a connection doesn't mean that there isn't one for other people. Defensive much?

How can there possibly be a connection with killing an animal for food and associated by-products, and killing an animal (in this case, a protected animal, which was part of a study and had been tagged, yet lured out of the National Park) simply for pleasure and a trophy head on a wall?

'Defensive much' - what does that even mean??

Because however much we enjoy meat it's not absolutely essential to our survival, therefore it's killing for the pleasure of eating meat. I'm not saying it's the same as Cecil at all, but it's definitely made me rethink. That's all I'm saying. I just find your attitude a bit dismissive and rude, but each to their own.

Just because you can't see a connection doesn't mean that there isn't one for other people

Obversely, just because you think you can see a connection, doesn't mean that there actually is one.

I'm not saying it's the same as Cecil at all

Yet you were indeed saying that! You've gone to great lengths to explain 'the connection'.

Oh FFS, I'm pretty sure I said in my post that I felt there was a connection but didn't expect everyone else to see it.

Just because things are connected doesn't mean they're the same. Are you deliberately being obtuse or are you always like this?

my post which was trying to explain the connection between eating meat and Cecil

Gast - I'm sorry, but those were your very words, Cut and Pasted as they appeared.

And yes, I'm always like this

And I've cut and pasted from my previous post:

'In my head the two things ARE connected. Having been vegan I know full well that I don't need animal products to survive, therefore I eat them essentially for pleasure; so is it really that different? This is just how I see it FOR ME and I don't expect others to agree.'

Crikey Evans you're rude! The vast majority of the UK is not vegan. A lot of those people write off what they do not know. People on this thread have worried being vegan is expensive, that it would restrict them from eating whole foods and thats what they prefer (yet the websites I showed are whole food vegan/plant based websites), that human bodies struggle to process plant based food (although studies have shown that digestive transit can be improved on a plant based diet) . Before I cut out dairy I thought it was all too hard. Then I discovered how easy it is to make dairy alternatives. I am one of those people.

At no point have I ever written what people should be doing. Please note I did not feel the need to tell you to poke it using obscenities and caps.

Hey Gast those websites have some really lovely recipes. Here's one of my favourites : ohsheglows.com/2014/08/13/crispy-quinoa-cakes-vegan-gluten-free-nut-free/

Crikey Evans you're rude
I don't think I am. I think you were, actually! Can you not see that your statement I find that a lot of people write off what they do not know is incredibly condescending?

I haven't seen many people on this thread worrying that being vegan is expensive. Most people have either argued the pros and cons of their own particular diet (meat/dairy/other). Most meat-eaters have said they dislike animal cruelty, and will only eat meat that has been raised and killed humanely.

And I STILL fail to see the connection between someone eating meat that has been humanely reared and killed, and the killing of a protected animal, living on a Nature Reserve, purely for pleasure. The two scenarios are still completely unconnected, and, quite frankly, a ridiculous comparison to make.

And TiedUp - I might even take a look at some of those recipes, because along with my steak, I really do like quinoa and couscous - we eat them often in this household.

So thanks for the info

I can't read all pages but has someone busted the calcium cows milk myth yet?

What myth is that?

Cow milk isn't good for calcium absorption in humans, quite the opposite.

Leafy green are much muche much better for calcium.

What you are saying is the myth.

As explained here.

I understand unlucky. We should eat loads of cheese instead of milk. Phew, cos neither dd or I like dairy except cheese, and she never ate green veg as a toddler either. And we don't eat that much now. Yet we both have every sign of sufficient calcium, so it's a cheese board for calcium you recommend, jolly good.

Your trying to dubunk something as a myth by linking to the dairy industry website for Canada? Ever heard of conflict of interests?

saveourbones.com/osteoporosis-milk-myth/

Lurkedforever1 - let me guess you and your dd aren't at an age where bone issues are common? Milk may do you a lot of good, if your a cow and have that anatomy.

Great boast about never feeding green veg , you sound very proud.

I guess I should copy/paste from the link I posted earlier, since nobody reads links on this thread:

Calcium and Bioavailability

Bioavailability is the degree to which a nutrient is absorbed and utilized by the body. The bioavailability of calcium refers to the fraction of dietary calcium that is potentially absorbable and the incorporation of the absorbed calcium into bone.

To meet calcium recommendations, the bioavailability of calcium is an important factor to consider beyond simply the calcium content of foods.

Various dietary factors can affect calcium bioavailability. Some food components act synergistically to promote calcium absorption. They include:

• vitamin D,
• lactose,
• casein phosphopeptides in milk.

Cow’s milk has good bioavailability of calcium (about 30 to 35%). It is estimated that without milk and milk products in the diet, less than half of the calcium requirements would be met. In fact, adolescents in Canada who have a Western type of diet are unlikely to meet their recommendations for calcium if they do not consume milk or milk products.

Plant foods contain many vitamins and minerals that are important for a balanced diet and can be a source of calcium. However, generally speaking, plant foods contain a considerable amount of inhibitory substances, such as oxalates and phytates. These bind to calcium and form insoluble salt complexes, thus decreasing calcium absorption. For example, cooked spinach contains 115 mg calcium per serving (125 mL or ½ cup), but only an estimated 5% (6 mg in absolute value) of it is actually absorbed. This is very little compared to the 32% (i.e. 101 mg) of milk’s calcium absorbed. Therefore, one would have to consume about 8 cups of spinach to obtain the same amount of available calcium found in 1 cup of milk (see table below).

The calcium bioavailability of some fortified foods is comparable with that of milk, but these foods do not always provide the same total calcium content per serving. Studies on fortified beverages, including soy beverages and orange juice, have shown that the fortificant tends to settle to the bottom of the carton and that even vigorous shaking may not be enough to re-suspend the calcium salts.

While it is possible to achieve adequate calcium intake and meet calcium requirements with a Western plant-based diet, it is easier and more practical to meet calcium balance when milk and milk products are present in the diet. Furthermore, the contribution of milk and milk products to calcium intake is important and advantageous nutritionally. The replacement of milk and milk products with calcium-equivalent foods has been shown to be detrimental to the overall nutritional profile, including the intake of other essential nutrients such as protein, magnesium, phosphorus, and vitamins A, D, B2 (riboflavin) and B12.6,7

Scroll down to see the table that shows the calcium content of selected food sources, the percentage absorbed by the body, and the number of servings required to equal the calcium absorbed from one cup of milk.

Oh I clicked it. Its still from the dairy lobby, one of the most powerful ones. Very very selective and biased.

Plenty of other independent research casts doubt on that.

Why is osteoporosis most prelivant in high dairy consuming countries then? We have shit loads of dairy in the uk but huge amounts of pensioners with osteoporosis.

unlucky. Bone issues weren't a problem for all the family members that lived to a ripe old age either.
I'm proud my dd had the evolutionary survival instinct to avoid possibly deadly plants, yes. Meant she wasn't shoving poisonous plants in either.
She ate green veg well disguised when solids were all mashed up, and again at about 4 when her brain was developed enough to know what we should and shouldn't eat. It's a normal aknowledged survival instinct.
I'd hazard a guess osteoporosis is more prevalent because pensioners live longer on average in countries with high dairy intake. The average longevity might be a small give away as to why old age problems are more prevalent in countries with large aged populations.