To ask everyone to eat less meat and meat products?

[Breadandwine]

There are 3 reasons I eat a plant-exclusive diet:

1. I feel I'm healthier (I became veggie to avoid BSE - and my osteoarthritis has been stopped in its tracks since I went vegan)
2. Animal welfare issues (I went vegan after looking at the inevitable cruelty involved in the meat and dairy industries)
3. Global warming/climate change (the single most important thing anyone can do to fight GW is to go vegan - the world's livestock industry contributes more to GW than does transport!)

Before global warming reared its ugly head, I was quite reticent about my veganism, only talking about it when I was asked. But now that our children's and our grandchildren's future is threatened, I'm a lot more vocal.

And now there's me and the Pope on the same side - who'dda thunk it?

Op wishes us to eat less meat and dairy because of the impact on the environment. However unless op thinks our nutrition requirements are about to change, then we'll need to replace it with something else, for which she suggests a vegan diet. Which would be great if growing high yields of crops to cover our dietary needs didn't also have an equally detrimental impact on the environment.

Some posters here should at least acknowledge that they have the luxury of making a lifestyle choice in a first world country. You won't starve in this country if you're vegan, your local supermarket will still carry your Peruvian maca powder, your Mexican quinoa, your Japanese tofu etc. The transport issues and farming practices at the point of origin are up to you to investigate/justify, if you truly wish to be 'greener'.

YABU in the same way as the people who 'discover Jesus' and think everyone else should believe in the same way too. YWNBU to quietly practise whatever the hell you want and if people admire you for it, let them in on what you believe.

The thing that pisses me off most about the evangelical vegans/vegetarians is that they simply assume that the people that eat meat haven't already had the debate with themselves about their food choices, and all we need is one of these enlightened people to point out to us that an animal will die for us to eat meat, and as soon as they give us a lecture we will suddenly see the light and change our eating methods. I've already had the discussion with myself thanks, and I make deliberate food choices based on what I am and am not comfortable with. Just like I won't suddenly convert religions by someone knocking on my door, I will not change my dietary choices by someone huffing and sighing at the dinner table.

It pisses me off too. People do it on all sorts of subjects - they make up their own mind and then make assumptions that if only the masses were educated (by them) they would see the light! We are educated- we had exactly the same information and we came to different conclusions.

If you want to make a difference OP then go back to being reticent and only talking about being a vegan if asked- it will do much more good. Your OP merely succeeds in irritating me and makes me very anti- even though I actually eat less meat.

I think that the pope would do more good if he encouraged birth control rather than telling us to cut down on meat eating!

Wow this is the mn equivalent of banging one's head against a wall I see.

You will be banging your head against the wall if you get evangelical about anything. it is as well to be told this. If you really want to make a difference set by quiet example. It has far more impact.

But I wasn't evangelical. I was focusing on the question posed by this thread. Some people read what they want to read, just for an excuse to argue. Carry on if that's what makes you happy.

I was focusing on the question posed. If she wants to make a difference she needs to go back to talking about it if asked. She is perfectly free to ignore it and be evangelical, but she will lose more people than she gains.

I don't think I've ever read such a bizarre pile of bull shit (pardon the pun) in my life.
I raise rare breed sheep (premium meat) and a run of the mill beef herd that can sell for anything from Tesco value prices to the butcher counter (pretty low end). Do any of you lot banging on about grain have any idea at all how much it would cost me to finish calfs on bought in feed? Wintering over on grain would finish me! Where does this cheap meat = grain fattened shit come from? Cheap meat producers tend to produce cheaply, if that involves grain they're doing it wrong. I don't get paid nearly enough to justify stealing the worlds grain harvests to feed my cattle. The weaning calfs get a touch of creep feed and the grown on animals get minerals to prevent staggers etc when the forage is low in nutrition. The ewes are on grass year round with minerals when lactating, in for less than a week when lambing because of fox predation. Most commercial sheep lamb outdoors but ours are natives and very small and more vulnerable to foxes at birth.

Where does this image of livestock being shut in tiny pens force fed tons of grain and never seeing the light of day come from? The factory farming label has a lot to answer for. Mass produced "cheap meat" by definition should be cheap to produce, electricity for sheds, fuel to muck out, cost of feed, cost of medicine due to higher infection risk indoors, nutritional deficiencies, foot rot, pulling calfs due to unexercised heifers, all of these things and more must be paid for and its not viable for most farmers. It is expensive to keep animals indoors. I'm not interested in how brazilian farmers raise their stock, stop peddling myths about farmers in the UK who are just trying to make an honest living.

I completely agree with the 'Eat less meat, preferably from higher quality local sources' message.

I would tentatively suggest eating more local everything (including veg), in fact.

Op's tone may be getting up noses but the suggestion itself isn't ridiculous.

Vegetarians need to consult meat eaters.
'Meat free Mondays ' is a good example. It may be a neat alliteration but the second most stupid day of the week to do it! People use up the roast. Meat free Tuesday might actually get somewhere.

You have a point, mehitabel. However I will now spend my first hour at work musing over alternative alliterations, so thanks for that

Tomatoes for Tuesday?
Have a lentil lunch?

On a serious note, there's a quote from Pratchett which goes: "We order the time of their birth and the time of their death, and in between those times we have a duty."
That sums up my feelings on the subject. It doesn't matter if you're vegan, veggie or omni; animal welfare should and could be better.

YANBU
Many people are not aware of the impact of meat production on our health, the planet, the 3rd world etc.
So it doesn't hurt to flag these issues up.
People are free make their own choices but I believe they should be given enough info to make informed choices.
( posted by a strict veggie !)

LadyPlumpington - It doesn't matter if you're vegan, veggie or omni; animal welfare should and could be better

I don't think one single poster on this thread has disagreed with that, but it wasn't the question posed.

FlankShaftMcWap I agree. DH and I own and run a ranch in South America and the myths applicable to UK farmers apply equally here. I am a veggie, and I am perfectly content with the standards of animal welfare on our ranch.

Anyone who tries to push their beliefs on anyone else is unreasonable. I don't ever tell people why I'm a veggie, there's no need, its a choice personal to me, just as everyone else's choices are personal to them. DH and DS eat meat, and I cook it for them, I have no issue with them eating meat, I just don't want to myself.

I tend to agree. I think we should eat less. I would like to be vegetarian but can't quite give up meat completely but have reduced to once or twice a week. I do eat a lot of fish too though and I know that can be unethical but in different ways

If you want to make a difference OP then go back to being reticent and only talking about being a vegan if asked- it will do much more good.
Agreed. A friend of mine endlessly posts on FB about the evils of meat-eating, sheep shearing etc etc and it drives me quietly nuts. I know about sheep shearing and it looks nothing like the video she posted so I assume she is being fed a load of bollocks and believing it all because she knows no better. I do know and then comment that perhaps she shouldn't believe every word spouted by PETA, given their rep for 'rehoming' dogs and cats in the nearest landfill.

There are parts of Britain where the only viable form of agriculture is free-range meat - sheep or cattle. Given the number of people in the world, and their requirement for protein, returning moorland and marshland to the wildlife is unlikely ever to happen.

Good for you! But it doesn't mean everyone will react the same! I am unable to egg fruit and certain veg at the moment due to reflux. I'm on a limited diet until they can finish the tests. Salad has been my worst trigger!

EvansOvalPies, yes, I know - I commented on the question posted in my first post and then moved onto general musing.

Although OP has come across a bit preachy, she does raise valid points n she has opened a largely interesting debate with many well thought out views.

She has obviously hit a raw nerve in some as well tho, some reactions r way ott, snippy n actually offended at the very idea of considering different options.

OP, yanbu at all n I agree with most of ur points but u may want to work on ur delivery!

I haven't read the whole 13 pages but essentially, YABU.

People all have different views and I respect that, the world would be a very boring place if we didn't however I loathe it when people try to push their own views / values down other people's throats.

I eat meat and I enjoy it - the thought of going veggie (let alone vegan) frankly makes me want to kill myself.

To address you points OP.

1. Cutting out meat does NOT make you healthier. If you eat a modest amount of good quality meat then your health benefits. We are designed to be omnivores, not herbivores. It is possible to be very healthy as a veggie / vegan but the overwhelming majority of people lack the nutritional / culinary knowledge to do so. You really need to know your stuff to thrive on a veggie / vegan diet. (DW is a doctor and has seen deficiencies caused by vegan diets first hand).

1. Cruelty is NOT inevitable in the meat / dairy industries! One thing that extremely high animal welfare standards does is to cause prices at the supermarket to rocket and most people are not prepared to pay them.

If people were prepared to dig a little deeper then corners regarding animal welfare would not have to be made in order to keep costs under control. It is the consumer NOT the farmer that is responsible for animal welfare, if anyone reading this is concerned about animal welfare but doesn't want to give up meat then abandon the supermarket and find yourself a good independent butcher who only sources from farms with welfare standards that you are happy with. Vote with your feet (purses) and you will see welfare standards rise across the board as demand for 'cruel' meat decreases.

1. It is true, cows emit greenhouse gasses. So do cars, power stations, factories etc. If you want to help global warming then why not switch off lights you're not using, cut down on car journeys, turn appliances off rather than use standby mode.... there is loads that you can do.

Thinking of buying a 'green' prius - well first familiarize yourself with the environmental damage involved in mining the materials for making the batteries. Over half of a cars carbon footprint is down to it's manufacture and delivery to the customer so actually the best thing you can do is get a mechanically simple car that is likely to have a long lifespan. I have an old land rover with a dirty great gas guzzling V8 engine however given that it's over 20 years old it's total carbon footprint is actually less than that of a prius which has been driven for 10 years and covered 150,000 miles.

Soy, a common ingredient in veggie foods is also horrific for the environment (but the preachy veggies don't tell you this - I'd wager that the majority don't even know themselves).
It is predominately grown in South America and other such tropical places. It is also a very nutrient hungry plant so one of the most widespread lethods of growing it is to crop down and burn a few acres of rainforest (home to thousands of animals and trees) and plant the crop.
Once 2 or 3 crops have been grown the soil is exhausted so they move on and chop down a few more acres, while the forest thy chopped down takes a couple of hundred years (minimum) to recover.

Doesn't sound very environmentally friendly to me!

I am a farmer (beef and lamb mostly) and refuse to supply supermarkets. I sell my beef through local markets, direct from the farm shop and through local butchers and restaurants. One of my steaks will cost you 3 times what it will in ASDA or Tesco but I promise you that's not profit.

That money pays for meat which is certified organic, exceptional animal welfare and extremely high environmental standards on my land.
I could easily raise double the number of animals on my land that I do and still be considered to have 'good' animal welfare. They all live outdoors with 2000 acres to roam over. I don't kill too many predators on my farm, I spend money making pens and buildings very secure - only resorting to shooting the really persistent ones. I have large areas of woodland and fallow land, lots of extra wide hedgerows for wildlife and ponds specially dug to nurture a population of great crested newts which were discovered a few years ago.

All this costs money - money which has to come from the sale of my produce. Next time you're in the supermarket looking at a '3 chickens for a tenner' deal (well done Tesco) then just take a long hard look in the mirror.

Soy is predominantly grown to feed animals - around 90% of it is for that purpose I think maninawomansworld. It also bulks out a lot of cheap meat products.

The rest of your points are more or less sound. I'm vegan, so have voted with my purse and don't buy meat anymore.

I'm not crazy about your ranty tone though.

wwf.panda.org/what_we_do/footprint/agriculture/soy/consumers/

www.soyatech.com/soy_facts.htm

References to support my statement above.