To ask everyone to eat less meat and meat products?

[Breadandwine]

There are 3 reasons I eat a plant-exclusive diet:

1. I feel I'm healthier (I became veggie to avoid BSE - and my osteoarthritis has been stopped in its tracks since I went vegan)
2. Animal welfare issues (I went vegan after looking at the inevitable cruelty involved in the meat and dairy industries)
3. Global warming/climate change (the single most important thing anyone can do to fight GW is to go vegan - the world's livestock industry contributes more to GW than does transport!)

Before global warming reared its ugly head, I was quite reticent about my veganism, only talking about it when I was asked. But now that our children's and our grandchildren's future is threatened, I'm a lot more vocal.

And now there's me and the Pope on the same side - who'dda thunk it?

Why would they only be be seen in history books???

Cote it's not about cows farting! Is that where you think the problem lies? No. In Brazil - the world's greatest beef producer - deforestation is happening at the rate of five football fields a minute for cattle. Forests act As carbon sink holes so this is a huge contributor. Then there's transport, feeding, watering... that is where the carbon emissions come from.

And the 2006 report was NOT cited in last year's literature review by Forest Trends showing the biggest drivers of climate change. Look it up - it makes for very interesting reading.

Of course they would only been seen in history books or zoos. Who would keep an animal if they didn't have the commercial purpose? What would you do with hundreds of thousands of dead sheep if you only used the wool? What would pets eat?

The deforestation of Rainforests is mainly due to over-production of palm oil, mainly for the western diet (you know, the stuff used to cook crisps and other 'tasty' snacks) therefore the indigenous species of creatures is displaced and decimated.

I personally have a huge problem with snacks which have used palm oil to be cooked in. I have no problem with mammals HUMANELY reared in the UK for human consumption, in fields that are already here. We, as a family, eat less meat - but I do object to someone telling me what I should and shouldn't eat.

FavouriteWasteofTime Well of course these animals would eventually be in the history books. I would be more than happy to see over-farmed, intensively-reared, miserable and unhappy animal farming out of the way. However, sensible and responsible farming, keeping alive rare breeds of animals is another matter entirely.

As a species, the human is an Omnivore, not a Herbivore (it's why we have a different set of teeth from both Carnivores and Herbivores - they have been naturally designed to cope with both animal and vegetable matter). It's just a case of getting the balance right.

You can ask away but I will be taking absolutely not one blind bit of notice of you.

So we have to eat animals so they don't become extinct? We are doing them a favour by eating them?

There are lots of animals that have managed not to die out because humans don't do them the favour of farming and eating them. Cows, pigs and chickens can live wild. We can also work with them in permaculture systems.

Can you imagine the terrible cruelty of letting farm animals roam wild and die in pain where they drop?
Animals don't die out because they are wild with a food chain.
What is going to kill and eat cows in Uk? I suppose crows etc can start pecking them to death when they are in a weak, near death state.

Certain animals, yes! I'm sure you are not being obtuse and have heard of 'Rare Breed' Pigs, for instance. If humans did not eat them, necessitating them being reared, then they would die out and be consigned to the history books. If they have led a healthy, happy, free-range life and not been intensively and cruelly reared - I'm happy with that, personally.

Are you going to pay the vets bill of a feral pig favouritewasteoftime when it ends up in your garden old and ill?

They will have to be on rare breeds farms open to the public as curiosities. Who landscapes like the Lake District will change.

What will pets eat?

"Cote it's not about cows farting!"

Umm yes it is. How else do you think they spew out methane, a gas that contributes to global warming? Again, so do we and all other mammals and most remaining animals. Cows are hardly singularly egregious in this respect.

"In Brazil - the world's greatest beef producer - deforestation is happening at the rate of five football fields a minute for cattle."

I don't eat meat imported from Brazil and neither does anyone I know. Is that why you think we should all renounce our place in the food chain and force ourselves to be herbivores? I don't see what Brazil's deforestation has to do with my eating meat from animals raised less than 100 km away.

Favourite - what are your shoes made from? Are they leather?
If plastic, that is doing far more harm to the planet than the by-product of beef.
Do you wear nylon sweaters, or woollen ones?
Do you eat crisps (that have been cooked in palm oil, the MAIN reason the rainforests are being decimated.

You can ask away but I will be taking absolutely not one blind bit of notice of you.

High five. How do you want your steak?

Badlad - nothing a competent Vet couldn't bring round!

Make that two.

Whenever I read these threads I'm reminded of the Quarantine episode of Red Dwarf, where Rimmer makes Lister eat sprout soup, followed by sprout salad and then sprout crumble.

(Shudder)

Oh here we go again! I had a friend at school bang on and on about being veggie but she only did it to be trendy. The funniest argument was when I said ' I didn't look the cow I ate in the eye as it was killed so my concience is clear' she started saying 'how do you know you could have driven past the field and seen that cow!' . Her arguments were flawed. I am an adult, I choose what i eat and when and I love animal products.

As for no veggie sandwiches I have seen veggie options in subway, McDonald's etc, m&s, Griggs....

'Cows pigs and chickens can live wild' has to be amongst the most wildly irrational statements I've ever heard, and displays a complete ignorance of any knowledge on food production in the entire history of the human race. But I'll attempt to explain. They are domestic animals who bare virtually no resemblance physical or behavioural to the wild ancestors or modern equivalents of the animals they evolved from. If you don't look after them, they'll die. And if you don't sufficiently fence off some kind of reserve then they'd cause chaos even in tiny numbers 'released' to the wild, either in urban areas or more remote areas. They'd devestate the countryside because there's no natural predators, or their enclosed reserve because there's no natural ecological purpose for domestic farm animals and no ecological balance. Even if you spend billions on fencing off reserves then they'd still need caring for, feeding, watering etc because natural selection for survival skills hasn't played a part in breeding since man took up farming instead of hunting. We can't even keep any form of balance in herbivores like wild ex moor ponies because humans have screwed the environment so thoroughly so your average cow has no chance. It's like releasing a t-cup Yorkshire terrier to live in the wild on the basis wolves do. So they'd 'cost' as much as they do now because the cost wouldn't be set off by any profit. And who's paying for all this? Including reimbursing the farmers whose livelihoods you've just destroyed.
Seriously everyone is entitled to an opinion but if you want anyone to take it seriously a vague clue about the topic is necessary.

Well said Lurkedforever.

By all means stop eating meat but you have to accept that farm animals disappear and you find a few farms where they manage to make a living by opening to the public and showing them as curiosities.
If they go wild there would be outrage when feral pigs are around your dustbin, causing road accidents and attacking your child.

I keep asking- what will pets eat?

I just think we could all be a little kinder with our choices. I'm certainly no saint - I have pet cats which isn't compatible with a vegan lifestyle - but I love my cats and try not to act in a way that hurts any animals.

It isn't easy to make good choices though, which was my point about the vegetarian sandwiches. Have a look - there may be one boring vegetarian option, almost never a vegan option. I just think that we eat a lot of animal products without actively opting to when there's so little alternative.

I don't think we would ever find ourselves in a situation where farm animals were 'set free' to roam the streets. If we ate less meat, farms would be scaled back and there would be fewer animals in the system.

And on the studies on the 'cost' of livestock. They're for the most part bollocks. They don't compare it with the equivalent cost of crops. they basically say that a piece of land can produce more plant crop than meat crop. Which is true if you don't look at the actual work or cost involved to ensure that's the case. Neither does it account for the fact natural climate, conditions and resources dictate what crops we produce, animal or plant in any area. Few places ( infact I can't think of any off the top of my head) have conditions that allow humans to survive to reasonable standards of health on a vegan diet without transporting products large distances or using equipment with its own high environmental impact.
Also it's worth being aware of the fact that after outside factors like war and disease, all the large food shortages/ damage have been down to plant crops not meat production. Oklahoma dust bowl, irish famine, large scale crop failures etc. Even in drought or following disease or war, keeping your pig or cow alive was significantly easier than your crop. And it says a lot about what goes into plant production when after bubonic plague the survivors were more likely to have a living cow or pig than plowed field.

Why would we keep them in a reserve???

I eat a lot of vegetarian meals and I get my meat from a local butcher- then I know where it came from and how it was treated. It costs more this way and so I eat less of it.
If I was doing it because of the treatment of animals I would give up dairy products before meat. We are so far divorced from our food sources that I don't think that many people have the slightest clue about milk production.

We wouldn't keep them at all! Who would pay for winter feed when they can't go out to grass? Who would maintain the grass? Who would pay the vets bill for things like foot rot? Who would pay for fences when you don't need them? Who would rescue them from snow drifts? Who would deal with the dead bodies?

There wouldn't be herds of animals roaming around needing to be looked after. Why do you think there would be?