To stop contact between my DD and her dad because he is a miserable bastard..

[TheCourier]

Such a long story, but essentially been separated from DD's (9) dad for 2.5 years. He is emotionally abusive and an alcoholic.

He generally sees her a couple of times a week and they speak most evenings on the phone.

He is a grumpy, sweary, miserable bastard most of the time. I will pull him on it, then there'll be a few good contact sessions, then he'll revert.

Up until now DD has always seemed mostly happy to be going out with him (although sad post-contact if it goes badly). Last night, though, she was in a state because they had a very 'difficult' (as she put it) phone call and she was worried today would be rubbish. I said we should she how it went, and if it was bad I would speak to him, but she was still nervous and worried about what to do if he was. Apparently when he picked her up (I was at work) he was in a massive grump and complaining about lots of things.

I've tried for 2.5 years to get him to behave decently towards her. There is no formal contact order. Frankly I just want to tell him to get fucked (won't use those words obvs) for a while and that if he doesn't sort his head out he can go whistle.

I've been so fucking patient, but I see no benefit to my DD seeing someone so negative and grouchy and manipulative and mind-fucking as her dad.

Last night he was grumpy because we got a hamster and he told her that it was 'stupid and not to get too attached to it because it will die soon'

Op, your update does put a slightly different spin on things, and while I still think that nine is too young to make such decisions or even to be asked if that's what she wants, I do think that there are ways in which this can possibly be managed.

Firstly, I would give her permission to have or not have phone calls with him. I am personally in two minds about phone calls because IMO if the other parent calls then it puts an expectation on the child to drop what they are doing because their other parent wants to talk to them. While both me and xh do call ds when he is with the other one, sometimes they might be out, and so I might not get to talk to ds that night. I have told ds that he can call either of us at any time and that I don't expect him to come running from whatever he's doing because there is an expectation to talk to me. He is nearly 13 though so more able to make such decisions for himself. In this instance I wouldn't ask your dd what she wants to do but perhaps give her an option, "so, would you prefer it if you got to talk to daddy on the phone when you have a free moment rather than having to drop what you're doing when he calls? Perhaps what we can do is let you be the one who calls him?" And then don't push the issue. Ask if she is going to call him perhaps but don't force it iyswim. And then tell your xh that dd wants to be the one who makes the calls. You may find that this then falls into a patern, and that if xh is particularly negative she will hold off calling until she feels better about him iyswim but then it hasn't come down to her actively refusing to talk to him, just not making the effort to iyswim - there is a difference.

WRT contact, how do you get on with his family? Would you be able to get one of them on side to facilitate a better arrangement which means there is another party in the equation so less chance for xh to be so negative to her all the time? if not then less regular contact but with a specific agenda, as outlined in a PP might be the way to go.

Thanks all.

As a rule my DD does call her dad (as he doesn't like to pay for the nightly calls) rather than the other way round. However, if she is late, or forgets he sting-rings (do we still call it that? In fact, does anyone not in my neck of the woods call it that?) the home phone and my mobile on a loop until she calls him back. The home phone rings, then stops, then my mobile, then the home phone again and again. I hate this too, but he won't stop doing it. I have said to her before that she doesn't have to call him, but then the nightly ringing starts and she feels obliged to do it even if I explain that she doesn't have to.

I did use third parties for a while when things were even worse than they are now (constantly turning up drunk). My mum and his adult son helped for a while, but it's such a big thing to ask of someone and they weren't really comfortable doing it. Once things improved we went back to unsupervised contact as my DD didn't like the forced nature of the meetings. Then he was more amenable for a few months, now things are deteriorating again.

I'm inclined to think that if we have another episode of her being as stressed and panicky as she was yesterday, I give her the option of skipping that contact, speak to exH and explain exactly why (though he will doubtless tell me that it is all my fault, I don't understand my DD and she tells him terrible things about her life at home (never specified or discussed) and that I am responsible for how he behaves because I left a 'perfect marriage') and see if that gives him the kick he needs. Nothing else ever has though.

I think that's the problem. I've known him for 15 years. For most of those years I've been waiting for one reason or another for him to wake up and realise that his life isn't so bad, no one is out to get him, nothing needs to be as stressful as he makes it and he has lots of people available (particularly, now, my amazing DD) who want to love him and get love from him, but he's just incapable of doing it. I don't know if it's his personality or his addiction, but I think I'm finally coming to the conclusion that this is it, this is him and I don't want to watch my DD tie herself into knots for years trying to understand/fix him, which she is already trying to do.

ok, I would put your phone on do not disturb or silent and simply unplug the house phone to prvent his calls. or I might even change the landline number and screen his calls to the mobile as per above.

Tell him that dd will call if she wants to, if she doesn't then it is not down to him to call repeatedly with expectations.

Agree with wannabe that's horrible..she shouldn't have to speak to him and neither of you should be harassed like that....

Let him know that contact will be at dd choosing, and let dd know it's ok to take a break as daddy not in a good place / not well....
She needs to really know it's him not her..

I would keep a diary of all the various incidents so that you have the proof of all the abusive things that he has said and done to your DD. I agree that the phone calls shouldn't be forced on your DD so be prepared to put your phone on silent or switch it off.

Contact is for your DDs benefit but being around an abusive drunk cannot be good for her. Tell him that he has upset DD with his remarks about the hamster and he needs to apologise. It sounds like everyone is so scared of tiptoeing around your ex that your DDs emotional wellbeing has become less of a priority than keeping contact going.

He's still controlling you. Set limits for yourself - phones on silent if no calls (family text first if they need you so you answer). I think your life was so shit when you were living with him you can't see how unreasonable he is being. You are right, by the way, he is abusing your daughter. Step in and stop it - she's too young to make that decision.

If your Dd refuses to call him any time I'd turn my phone off and unplug the house phone for the evening. Also teach her to tell him "I'm going now, bye" if he gets started on the phone, she can hang up and needs to start to protect herself from his negativity.
I know at her age I told my Dad in person "I'm not your spy, ask Mum" when he questioned me, my Nan (his Mum) heard, and I could see her giggling in the background.
It''s probably in her best interest to cut the visits to once a week instead of twice, give her a break, he sounds very full on and stressful for her.

God. I know. I've set so many limits and boundaries - and he oversteps them all. Up until my new DP started being around more he used to walk into my house, sit down and demand that DD got him a glass of water. If I objected he'd just say, loudly, in front of her 'It's just a glass of water. God, you'd give a glass of water to a beggar on the street wouldn't you?' I've stopped him coming in now. The phone calls are really the last thing to deal with. I'm sorry if I sound like a weed, but, honestly, I've spent the last 2.5 years juggling setting appropriate boundaries with giving my DD the time with her dad she wants. Any 'weakness' is jumped on and exploited. It's just exhausting.

I do, a little, resent the accusation that I've lost sight of my DD's emotional wellbeing. That's been my entire focus. She's a wee girl and she wants (often) to see her dad, even when he's difficult. She has had counselling and I've managed everything as fairly and calmly as I can. I've taken the whole 'It's very important that children have contact with both parents' thing to heart and worked and worked to make that contact good. I've tried to manage it so they do go out and do go to public spaces but he loses it anyway, if not with her, with people around. I've made contact supervised when things were really bad. The one thing I have not done is stop contact because the prevailing opinion is that it's a VERY BAD THING TO DO and lack of contact with a parent damages a child.

Earlier in the thread people assumed I was wondering whether to stop contact (presumably just to be a bit of an arse) and were quite stern with me, now people are being stern with me because I haven't already stopped it. That's basically how I've been internally 'Shall I? Well, no, that's wrong. But then it's wrong that he behaves how he does. What if it is damaging to her? What if not seeing him is more damaging? How the fuck do I adequately judge it?' Especially as his behaviour can vary so wildly. Honestly, I talk with DP (poor bugger) about this for hours and we cannot ever work out what is best.

The advice on managing calls is really helpful. Thank you.

Sorry - previous was a little whiny. I'm feeling a little sorry for myself as well as a lot sorry for DD I think.

You're not whiny, you're in a no win situation (which is why you're getting contradictory advice). You are doing brilliantly and I can't imagine how stressful this is for you.

If what you're saying is correct, we should all have our children taken off us the minute we display any negative character habits.

You are in danger of playing God OP.

If your DD decides in say 5 years time that she CBA with her Dad, that's up to her.

Absolutely not your choice, though.

I think you're doing the best you can in a difficult situation and I feel for you, OP.

What he is doing with the loop phone calls is unreasonable (as is the idea of daily phone calls in itself, for most children in most circumstances). Definitely try to manage that by unplugging the phone (he will still hear a ring tone) and by using do not disturb on your mobile. Are you concerned he will do something else ridiculous, like come round if you do this?

They aren't negative character traits. They are abusive behaviours. I don't think minimising it (as I did for a lot of my marriage) is helpful. I was subjected to this behaviour for years. By the time I left my marriage I was a shell of the person I had been. I even walked differently. I was broken by it, constantly checking myself and trying and failing to behave in an acceptable way. Everything was my fault.

He does the same to my DD now. He makes her feel bad because he feels bad. He swears at her, he gets aggressive with me or with people in the park/street who he doesn't like the look of in front of her. He tells her all about the terribly things mummy has done to him. He tells her he can't afford to eat. He tells her he doesn't have a bed. He tells her how sad he is because mummy won't let him live at home any more. He tells her how fucking fed up he is with mummy and everyone else. He shows her pennies in his pocket and says that's all the money he has. He makes her responsible for him and for things that happen when they are together. He told her he was going to hit my DP in the face with shovel. It's utterly, utterly grim. Yet apparently, because he's a NRP I am not even allowed to float the idea that suspending contact while he sorts his head out, or even to give him a short, sharp shock, is somehow so much worse than all of that (and that's not even all - there's loads). Yes, sometimes he manages to contain it and they have an ok time, but even then my DD often feels a level of anxiety to ensure that they do, that I'm really uncomfortable with.

I should just allow another 5 years of potential damage (she brings this up at school too sometimes) because why exactly? I'd protect her from this from anyone else, why does he get a fucking free pass?

Just to say that I totally understand your post of 10.29. And so much depends on the language used, even inside your own head. If you frame it as your dd's dad being abusive to her, well, any exposure to abuse is too much. But if you frame it as him just being unpleasant, you'll be told off for well, see above. But when does a pattern of habitual unpleasantness cross the line into abusiveness? How much is too much?

It's a similar dilemma with pointing out problems with the other parent's behaviour. Is doing it badmouthing? Is failing to do it normalising abuse?

There is no exact science to determine when (and how much) contact does more harm than good. I know that I hate seeing dd endure treatment that I found deeply distressing as an adult. I've reached the point where I feel that supervised contact is a midway position I can live with.

Are you concerned he will do something else ridiculous, like come round if you do this?

I used to be, but not so much any more, as DP is often here and he wouldn't know whether or not he was. He did once. And used to threaten it often.

No, I just know that a missed phone call would result in a few days of shitty calls with DD once they started up again. But I guess, again, we just stop calling until he stops being like that.

cross-post!

Hah biblio!

Anyway, thanks all. I was very sad and frustrated and angry yesterday and I'm calmer again today. I won't be stopping contact, but I'll be listening closely to my DD's feelings around each individual contact and if she is in a state like she was the other night I'll be postponing that session.

I'm going to manage the calls differently too and will speak to DD and yet again text exH to explain how to behave like a reasonable human.

Disappointed that no one had a magic button for me to press that could have made things instantly better though.

OP you are so NBU! I was in your position a few years ago, my DD ended up under CAMHS, suicidal and self harming at 13. I ended up stopping overnight contact and she now has supervised contact for 3 hours a week with his parents there. She is like a different child but I wish so much that I had acted sooner before she got to that point.

You sound like a wonderful caring mum, your DD is lucky that you have her back.

I would definitely stop the phone calls, and overnights and let him know via a third person or in writing exactly why.

Why should your DD suffer like that just because it is her Dad doing it? If it was a partner doing that to get it would be a unanimous LTB. How is this contact benefitting her? It is incredibly damaging and horribly painful to have to watch your child go through. Trust your instincts, stop this now before it goes any further. If he gives a shit about her he will stop abusing her.