To stop contact between my DD and her dad because he is a miserable bastard..

[TheCourier]

Such a long story, but essentially been separated from DD's (9) dad for 2.5 years. He is emotionally abusive and an alcoholic.

He generally sees her a couple of times a week and they speak most evenings on the phone.

He is a grumpy, sweary, miserable bastard most of the time. I will pull him on it, then there'll be a few good contact sessions, then he'll revert.

Up until now DD has always seemed mostly happy to be going out with him (although sad post-contact if it goes badly). Last night, though, she was in a state because they had a very 'difficult' (as she put it) phone call and she was worried today would be rubbish. I said we should she how it went, and if it was bad I would speak to him, but she was still nervous and worried about what to do if he was. Apparently when he picked her up (I was at work) he was in a massive grump and complaining about lots of things.

I've tried for 2.5 years to get him to behave decently towards her. There is no formal contact order. Frankly I just want to tell him to get fucked (won't use those words obvs) for a while and that if he doesn't sort his head out he can go whistle.

I've been so fucking patient, but I see no benefit to my DD seeing someone so negative and grouchy and manipulative and mind-fucking as her dad.

Last night he was grumpy because we got a hamster and he told her that it was 'stupid and not to get too attached to it because it will die soon'

I think I said in my OP that I didn't mean permanently cutting contact. A break to give people a chance to reassess maybe.

He doesn't upset her IMO, he abuses her. It's not a bit of a rant, it's a sustained campaign of attack and negativity for the entire contact period.

And, whether you believe it or not, EVERY SINGLE PERSON - without exception - thinks I have been patient beyond any limit they would be capable of. I want the right thing for my DD. I'm happy and free now. I'd like him to wake up tomorrow as a dad who could put his daughter first and for her to have lots of happy times with him. But it isn't happening and I feel like I am colluding in something that hurts her.

I am so upset I ended a sentence with a preposition there.

When does all that negativity out weigh the need for a child to have a relationship with their parent

exactly this.

OP I think you have done fantastic and more than he deserves in relation to your dd, but she is reaching the age now that she can see for herself that something is not right with her dad because she sometimes feels unsafe around him, thats how it started with me!

The man needs a court order telling him not to get drunk around his child! FFS!

Its is out of order if people jump to conclusion that you would cut contact completely, I think your dd should be able to decide for herself if she wants contact or not! Some times even as a child you just know its going to go badly, if I could have only said no I'm not staying with him tonight I'll see him tomorrow, then things may have been different...who knows.

I'd like him to wake up tomorrow as a dad who could put his daughter first and for her to have lots of happy times with him.

Children want that as well, you may find over the years your dd will give him chance after chance too.

ollieplimsoles said: 'she is reaching the age now that she can see for herself that something is not right with her dad because she sometimes feels unsafe around him, thats how it started with me!'

Me, too.

At 7 and 8 yrs old, I didn't have the vocabulary or real understanding to say 'I hate going to Dad's house. He is always in a bad mood and makes me feel sad. He says horrible things about my mum all the time. I feel sick and stressed every time I have to go there'.

By 10 yrs old, I DID. And I'm glad my mum listened to me.

As I said previously, my mum didn't just suddenly 'cut contact' between me and my dad. She told him how I felt and said she thought it was best if he saw me less frequently and the arrangement was a monthly outing somewhere fun for me - park, cafe,his relatives' houses etc - rather than a fortnightly whole weekend of depression at his house. It worked well.

Good luck, OP. It sounds like you are doing a great job and have been trying to make this work. Hope you can reach a decision.

As I said previously, my mum didn't just suddenly 'cut contact' between me and my dad. She told him how I felt and said she thought it was best if he saw me less frequently and the arrangement was a monthly outing somewhere fun for me - park, cafe,his relatives' houses etc - rather than a fortnightly whole weekend of depression at his house. It worked well.

This is something you could think about OP, at 9 she is probably still too young to understand what an alcoholic is (and I would want to keep it that way for her and her dad's sake) so more limited contact might make him buck his ideas up a bit more.
My dad eventually left the country and started a new family, he wanted us to come and stay with him but the damage was done by then. Hes now fucking up the new kids he had.

It might be worth focusing on the positive aspects of your dd and xh's relationship and the time that they spend together, rather than allowing your dd to dwell on the negative.

You know, I've tried this. But to be frank, I'm starting to feel like I am negating her experience. She's not stupid. She knows when something is shit, and if I tell her it's not (when I wasn't even there) then how am I doing her any favours.

I don't like her dad, but I don't slag him off - to her or anyone as I think talking negatively about someone just breeds more negativity. I've been brutally honest about him here on an anonymous forum, and it doesn't sound positive, but it's all bald fact, no embellishment.

I'm not sure pretending he's a good guy (when he spends 90% of his time with my DD slagging me off) does anyone any favours. I think it's ok to say things like 'Well, daddy finds it very difficult that we don't live together any more, so he is very cross with me but it isn't ok for him to express all that to you as you are not responsible for any of it'

Rather than 'Oh let's not talk about daddy swearing and being mean to you and about me and telling you how unhappy he is, rather isn't it nice that he took you to the park?'

If he is as abusive as you are saying, then why have you not returned to court for a variation etc?? If he has become that abusive then you have a duty to get this reassessed.

I think this is a really tricky situation to be in, I have a 9yo dd who would love to have contact with her dad but he buggered off when I was pregnant and hasn't been in touch since!

Fwiw I think some contact is better than none however I think maybe cutting the contact down to 1 or 2 phonecalls a week and a few hours out at the wend would be enough. If he starts to behave better then this could be increased.

I would tell him this and spell out with examples of why the contact is being reduced.

I see your point. You were able to end your relationship and escape him, but your dd is still trapped in a relationship with him. You must want to help her escape, too. I think the idea about having less contact and for specific outings is worth trying. But in the end, if your child is asking not to see him, I think you need to listen.

How hard do you think he would fight for contact if you drastically reduced it? He is more than a "miserable bastard" but probably things aren't bad enough for the court to stop access or insist on supervised access.

Personally I think YANBU. I wouldn't push your DD if she is unhappy and would limit unsupervised access as far as possible but try to put a positive spin on things when you can.
However,if she actually says that her Dad is being mean to her ,not listening and just focusing on the positive would be quite invalidating of her.

I don't envy your situation OP. The fear of having to let kids go off with someone like this on their own makes people reluctant to leave difficult relationships.

I used to come across CAFCASS professionally-sometimes they were rubbish and a lot of kids were in situations like this.

If he has become that abusive then you have a duty to get this reassessed.

Why bother? Surely its going to be money and hassle? and a duty to who- the father? No formal contact order in place, hes not going to take her to court over it- just let it go. The OP has already tried and messed about with courts just to arrange a suitable situation for her DD to spend time with her dad. Now DD is realising for herself the faults he has and hes not rectifying them, just stick to normal contact but if she doesn't want to go- don't force her.

It must be so hard for children of this age.

If one of the children at school was making her feel like this, you - and probably her teachers as well - would be advising her to tell someone how she feels and stay away from the person who's upsetting her.

Yet when it's her own dad, some people on here are saying you should tell her to suck it up.

He needs to hear that there are times she's not enjoying contact because of his negativity, so what does he plan to do to change that? If nothing, I would cut down contact. Do keep a record of events and what's said / agreed, though, in case he does take it to court.

ollie but there is still a contact order in place

It's been through courts. They have seen both sides to this story ( we have only one) so I'd be reluctant to advise op to stop/restrict contact without it being 'on record'... This man had been deemed ok to have contact, we don't know the full facts, but if he has deteriorated to what the op describes, then she needs to make the courts aware

The wording of the contact order is 'as agreed between the parties'. There's no minimum per week or anything. Court costs money too, of which I have almost none.

I don't know what to do really. I need to have a think.

Hi OP, I'm in a somewhat similar situation. Dd, 7, was becoming sufficiently distressed by exH's treatment of her that the school felt it was a safeguarding issue. We're back in court, children's services are looking at the situation, and exH currently has shorter periods of contact, in the presence of third parties (friends/family). It sounds a bit like Esta's situation, although on a more formal footing.

I definitely think we should be teaching our children that if something another person does makes them unhappy or scared (especially if that person is an adult), their feelings will be taken seriously and not disregarded because of the status of the other person.

I take your point Tennis, Its is better to have everything official.

In answer to your question OP YADNBU to allow your DD to skip a contact session with her dad if she suspects he is going to be horrible/ drunk, all this nonsense about his rights to her time 'because he is her father' doesn't and never will wash with me.
You seem pretty confident that he won't contest it in court but as others have said, make sure you at least try to document everything in case he tries anything. A child's relationship with NRP can be a very complex one, one rule for all does not suit every case.

bibliomania Good that the school has picked up on this and you are going through the channels to protect her. 7 is very young and just goes to show that children are capable of picking up on when they are being treated unreasonably.

I definitely think we should be teaching our children that if something another person does makes them unhappy or scared (especially if that person is an adult), their feelings will be taken seriously and not disregarded because of the status of the other person.

You put it better than I could but I was going to add just that to my last post!

This automatic mentality of 'you have to see him/her because they're your dad/mum' has to stop. Some times parents are simply not fit to have contact with their children if they are finding the living/ break up situation difficult or struggling with something that may cause them to be abusive to their child (such as alcoholism). They are not in the right place and contact should be withheld till they sort themselves out- or their relationship with their children will suffer.

My dad was an abusive alcoholic. I fucking wish my mum had stopped him seeing us.

Even at younger ages, I think it's important to listen to children's feelings about contact. Mine will occasionally ask if they can see their dad on when he's not due for contact, and if it's practical then I have no problem with it.

Likewise, at times one or the other has rung and asked me to come and get them because something has made them unhappy. I am careful to make sure they aren't using me to escape a reasonable request (like cleaning their room or if they've been put in time out for bad behaviour) by speaking to their dad, but I will generally go and collect them. I want them to know that I'll listen to how they are feeling and do what I can to help.

Chances are is he EA to you he is EA to her too. So no YANBU to request he behaves and to reduce contact if he has been abusive to your DD and/or until he respects her and your boundaries.

She is stuck with him as a dad. But she is not onliged to put up with him making her unhappy.

Howeould you feel about involving other agencies in this?

YWNBU to cut contact if your DD wanted that, please don't force her if she does start saying she doesn't want to see him. Is there any way to have some kind of supervised contact? Or take the contact days down with Skype in-between?