To wish teachers had to take a spelling proficiency test before qualifying?

[ChwatFeechers]

DD, 11, is in her final year of primary school.

Yesterday she brought her books home from year 5. I was gobsmacked at the number of spelling mistakes which had been missed, whilst others had been marked in green pen. It wasn't an oversight either, as the same mistake was made often without being corrected, for example Febury for February.
There were also some grammar corrections to things DD had written correctly.
This isn't the first time I've noticed mistakes either.
AIBU to wish teachers had to prove they can spell adequately?
[runs]

Case in point. Yesterday in my (lower KS2 class) we were writing poetry using onomatopoeic words (our starter was The Sound Collector by Roger McGough). The success criteria was to: show planning of a multiverse poem, use ABCB rhyming for the verses and exciting choice of onomatopoeia.

One child wrote a wonderful poem, I mean really brilliant. However, the spelling was not great. The pupil has EAL. Would I be right to be highlighting every spelling mistake of that excellent poem or do I mark against the success criteria which that pupil achieved?

I don't see why butterfly.

I am very keen on correct spelling and grammar. I also know how to teach correct spelling and grammar, and correcting every mistake is not how you do it.

Leave it to the experts. Really.

IME, yes, private schools do correct every sopelling.

But they don't give formative feedback - it's like the marking of my childhood.

Would you rather your child's work had spelling mistakes marked, or that they were told what they had done well, and what they could do better? It is, essentially, a choice, as unless the class groups are exceptionally small and the volume of work very small too, it is not humanly possible to do both well, every night, overnight.

[How long do you think it takes to mark 32 x 2-3 pages of writing, of say 8-11 year olds who all do different things wrong, if you mark every spelling and grammar mistake as well as providing formative feedback? And then multiply that by 2-3, 5 nights a week?]

Couldn't agree more with Hezaire and teacherwith2kids

teacher evidently there is variation in what happens in private schools, which is the whole point of being private I suppose...

Quite apart from educational policies forced on schools and teachers, I think there are some (and I emphasise some) people who go into teaching because they don't have the qualifications to go into other professions and they don't make very good teachers. Before anyone jumps on me I would like to say that I had several very good teachers as do my children. There is no excuse for poor spelling from a primary school teacher, if you can't spell teaching should not be your career of choice.

I am not doing the 'primary teaching workload' whinge. I am simply saying that it is a choice - yes, every teacher could mark every spelling mistake, but by choosing to do this, we would reduce the time available to do other things, including commenting on other aspects of writing.

I do not choose to overlook some spelling errors because I can't spell those words. I choose to mark against specific criteria that reflect what we are learning that day, and these do not ALWAYS include 100% spelling accuracy of all words.]

lard amyloid you are quite right, however that it not the point which is under debate.

I teacher "correcting" spellings incorrectly is utterly unacceptable.

That seems like a giant waste, though. If someone isn't a great speller, but is a great teacher, they should do that. It's rarer (IMO) to be a great teacher than it is to be a great speller.

Just got back and was thinking in the car that maybe I needed to explain a bit more!

The test went something like (can't remember the exact words!):

Criticise
Minimise
Standardise
Realize
Legalise
&etc

So I'm not trying to defend myself as I know what i did was wrong (OK maybe I'm trying to defend myself a bit!) and obviously I've learnt from the thread and apologised to DD and taking further action & so forth. But is it at all understandable that I thought it was a spellcheck error? I'm feeling really lost about this as I was So SURE that I was doing the right thing for DD and now it's really, well, not so and a lot of people think I was actively wrong in my actions & now DD has been labelled a smartarse by the teacher and so forth.

I just feel really crap about this and want to learn from it but I still feel a bit bogged down.

Like with DD2 she has some extra help because of problems with speech, they are doing Biff and Chip, at what point do I need to introduce the concept of different spellings and you choose. If they need to know that by 7 then soon? But again, I'm going to step back aren't I so scratch that! And anyway the teacher said realise was wrong so. Um.

The attitude thing, anyone got any tips on that? DD is a smartarse and "gets on her soapbox about trivialities" and I don't want her to get in trouble / be widely disliked so again, any ideas? Or, is this another area I should step away from, the emotional stuff? At 7 though there seems to be a lot of stuff she is trying to navigate and I'm trying to do my best but maybe it sounds like not really adequate. Oh I don't know. You fuck up whatever you do I guess. This whole thread has wrecked my confidence really.

"There is no excuse for poor spelling from a primary school teacher, if you can't spell teaching should not be your career of choice."

So an utterly inspiring classroom teacher, superb at maths, inspirational in science, motivational in music, gets the best writing possible from children... but has a single weakness, in spelling, should not be a teacher?

That's absurd. Nobody in teaching is good at everything - I sometimes teach the dullest PE lessons in the world, although i try extremely hard to improve this through CPD. Why should spelling, uniquely, be the difference between someone who can teach and someone who can't? [I know some perfect spellers who are DREADFUL teachers, and vice versa]

whirl, I don't understand why you feel so bad? I'm really sorry you do, just confused - it doesn't seem a big deal to me and you shouldn't feel unconfident.

Given that list I agree it sounds like an error, and the teacher could have dealt with it better.

Aargh!

Recognize obviously and realise spelt with an -ise then. You know what I mean The list had all -ise of similar words except for one.

Anyway, if I've learnt one thing today, it's that I'm not very bright! So no surprise I've fucked that list up as well eh

Poor kids.

Have any of the teachers here got any comments on the situation I mentioned above, when a teacher crossed out my daughter's correctly spelled word and replaced it with his incorrect version? This was in primary school and it was a 5-letter word (in the correct version)!
Incidentally, when speaking to the headteacher about it, she said that she always has difficulty spelling "icy"! Incredible! Shouldn't she have learned that simple word in several decades of teaching before becoming HT?

It was sheer chance that I spotted this when looking through my daughter's books on a parents' day. I think it is unacceptable. Teachers who can't spell should at least check who is right before they cross out a pupil's word.
Shouldn't they?

Yes, I think that's really poor.

Not being able to spell icy sounds like a glitch, though - I can't see why it matters given she obviously knows it's an issue.

grunt, why do you want to derail the general discussion about spelling policy to discuss a single incident that none of us where party to? It's seems odd. Beyond saying the teacher should not have done it, what else are you looking for?

Jeanne because I told my child (after thinking on it) something that undermined her teacher (which is why I thought long on it and talked to DH). I honestly thought it should be recognise and didn't want her learning a spelling that was not the usual one in the UK (I did tell her that reconize was not incorrect but is generally how they spell it in America).

This led to her sitting at the test and having to decide which to go with, me or the teacher, which was a difficult position for her at 7 with 2 adults she trusts to tell her good information.

She put recognise and so did a couple of her friends, they mark each other's papers this was marked wrong. She asked (smartarse!!!) and was told no it needs to be spelt as per the sheet and so they are wrong.

So she came home and told me this and I didn't want to cause any more difficulty for her and so just said "oh well then" or something else vague and gave her some food

Anyway now I find out that I was wrong, really, to flag it. So I've caused her all that trouble, got her labelled a smartarse, got her work marked down, given her incorrect information, and undermined her faith in both me and her teacher! So all in all a really really shit result from one spelling.

So what I learn is, as mentioned, I don't know my arse from my elbow and need to not be confident that I know stuff as things I think are right may well not be

And

This whole smartarse thing I don't want her putting people's noses out of joint in the future, asking stuff like that, I have been encouraging her to ask, I should have thought to be more circumspect in that advice.

I apologise. I didn't mean to derail. Will fuck off now.

I feel bad that you feel bad! I think you shouldn't.

I don't teach little children, but I would never think a child asking questions like that was being a smartarse, and I know loads of teachers who would say the same.

At some point she will have to learn that you and her teachers aren't perfect and make mistakes!

Any child or adult spelling recognise with a z in the world outside a primary classroom will be fine, Year 6 child spelling it with a z in the SPAG SAT will not get the mark.

That's why the government for the first time ever included a statutory (ordered by the state and teacher MUST do) spelling list. You can all argue as much as you like but there's not likely to be a new National Curriculum for a few years now and "recognise" is the only spelling that will count in Year 6 SPAG.

They can spell it with a z in every other exam in their life and no-body will give two hoots, it's just this one test but it's silly to throw away a mark through not correcting a teacher who is not enabling your child to gain maximum marks possible by teaching them the spelling that will score 0.

You haven't derailed the thread, Grunt, how can it not be pertinent to a thread about spelling ability?

I'm a lawyer and recruit lawyers for my organisation. I see many lawyers with first class law degrees who don't have the faintest idea about spelling and grammar. I have to correct all their work before it goes out. It shocks me. However, having seen my DDs' books with teachers' comments that contain numerous spelling mistakes, maybe I shouldn't be so shocked. People just aren't taught how to spell any more.

National Curriculum also gives weary and wary as homophones, thank goodness that bit's guidance and non-statutory as I can't make them sound the same in my accent!

I wouldn't feel bad either. I don't think you did anything wrong here. Rules do change and it is difficult to keep up.

As a secondary science teacher, it has taken me a very long time to be able to write 'sulfur' instead of 'sulphur' on the board without it making my teeth itch.

Generally I do think its best to accept the expert's judgment. Someone up thread said that teachers had to earn parental trust and not just expect it. It seems to me that degree qualifications and teacher training are about providing just that level of trust. They deserve our trust.

As a parent, I too was very concerned by my dd's appalling spelling. The teachers on MN have, in their posts, demonstrated how developing a love of expressive writing and depth of language was key and that spelling follows later. I am beginning to see how right they were.

whirlpool you really do seem to have taken this Wayyy too seriously, it's a difference in spelling, not a crime you've taught your child to commit, which is only thing I can think would warrant the level of guilt / self-flagellation you're exhibiting here. Take a deep breath and just let it go, it really isn't the bigger deal you're making it