To wish teachers had to take a spelling proficiency test before qualifying?

[ChwatFeechers]

DD, 11, is in her final year of primary school.

Yesterday she brought her books home from year 5. I was gobsmacked at the number of spelling mistakes which had been missed, whilst others had been marked in green pen. It wasn't an oversight either, as the same mistake was made often without being corrected, for example Febury for February.
There were also some grammar corrections to things DD had written correctly.
This isn't the first time I've noticed mistakes either.
AIBU to wish teachers had to prove they can spell adequately?
[runs]

Well I think the obsession with spelling links to people like me. People who are responsible for recruitment and expect to see well written, accurate job applications. It helps a company's image and a department's credibility if the employees are perceived as intelligent, articulate and well educated. Those things go hand in hand with having a good grasp of literacy and numeracy. In a letter to a customer about a complaint or to a member of staff in response to a grievance it is important to convey meaning accurately and in a well constructed way. If a job application demonstrates that is unlikely, the person won't be interviewed.

Does that help explain why it's important?

I think spelling is important - another recruiter of twentysomethings here, and if they can't spell or punctuate effectively, it really holds them back as well as causing issues for their employer. Spellcheck is not a reliable alternative.

That said, I get what people are saying about too many corrections being counterproductive and a disincentive. I think there needs to be some recognition that people's brains are wired differently. i look at my family. My dad and I find spelling relatively easy - we don't have to think about it. My mum and my brother are both brilliant people, but my mum has long been convinced that she's 'dumb' because she struggles with spelling and it doesn't come naturally to her.

Children who struggle with spelling are literally crushed when you hand back a page of writing which has more red ink on it than the original blue.

Bit harsh to squash them in addition to the corrections, surely?

Thing is every person's brain is different. Me and my sis have talked about this many times. She's an excellent speller. I'm not. I rely on mnemonics, dictionaries, speller checker etc. She always says she can see the word in her head and writes it down.

Those who are like my sis will think why isn't every spelling corrected, once they see it written down they will remember it.

Those who find spelling more difficult will think correcting every spelling is a mug's game.

X post jassy!

Not finished reading thread but I'm torn on this one. I recently started cave homeschooling my DCs and I totally agree it's not good to overly focus on spelling when children are learning to write, because of the risk of putting them off trying new/interesting words when writing. DD's yr3 teacher had said as much - she said that it'd be when DD was, say, rewriting a story from the original draft, that we could go through spellings, see if she noticed any mistakes etc. That makes sense to me, and so when DD comes to me in the morning with a story she's written in bed instead of just going the fuck to SLEEP I don't jump on the mistakes.

I've had some difficulty convincing my very traditional parents of this (I was a precocious reader/strong speller so they often think DD is doing badly when she really isn't )

OTOH, I feel by yr5 that it should be stricter. Surely by then bad habits will be ingrained and children have had a long time to learn to handle constructive criticism. It's different at age 10 than being a fledgling writer of 6 I think.

claraschu I kind of see what you're saying but I had already told DD that both spellings were correct just one was used in the US and the other in the UK. I don't really want to tell her that many words have spellings that are acceptable alternates and she can choose as this will likely confuse her - she is 7 and just learning and at this stage I think it's better that she learns a single spelling and that's the answer.

The teacher has taught the class that ize is correct and marked down those with ise, DD's friend spelt it ise as well, which is part of the reason that DD asked the teacher. I personally thought it was good that she asked the teacher as she had got conflicting information and wanted to know what was correct. She is a very literal, rules based child, I'm a bit like that too so I can understand where she's coming from, I'm not sure how I can correct this aspect of her personality. Anyway I find it a bit sad that a 7yo girl asking a teacher a question is seen as being a "smartarse" and "getting on a soapbox about trivialities" which I find really harsh personally, but it's obviously not an uncommon sense so maybe talking to her about not questioning the teacher is another item to sit down with her about. I don't want her to be seen as an annoying little brat or a troublemaker or whatever. She's very quiet and biddable (a bit too biddable really and I worry about that, she's not very assertive, which was part of the reason I was surprised she asked the teacher) and she likes to know how things work and what is the right way and what is the wrong way. She's a maths type person (again like me!) straightforward "right "wrong" works for her. It's just how she is. I'm not sure she's old enough to try and empathise with the teacher before asking a question IYSWIM, so I will just need to say "don't ask questions about whatever it is" and she will do that, because that's what she's like. Rules, you see. Like spelling, maths, she likes to know the rules so she can understand and do. I suppose I could say something like "if you think of a question you want to ask the teacher, you need to consider whether there is anything in your question that contradicts any previous information they have given you, and if the teacher has told you something that definitely condradicts something you have heard elsewhere you should not raise it with them". I feel that's a bit complicated though, probably.

I suppose maybe there is a sense here among posters that she is a horrible, nasty, gobby, unpleasant child but she's nice really, quiet and "good" and studious, a bit too much in my opinion but still, I don't want her to get into trouble.

I just want to do the right thing really but it is the case isn't it with children that whatever you do you cock it all up. First this and now it seems her personality is an issue (I have been concerned that she is too biddable, rather than too gobby! So that is interesting too).

Well if they are going to be literally crushed, that seems a touch harsh

Our teacher isn't too bad, but we had a great letter about the summer fair a few weeks ago.

Parents needed to help run a few stalls, please put your name down if your free for half an our.

I'm with Beaufort here. When I recruit people, if there are spelling mistakes in their application, they dont get shortlisted. At that stage, recruiters have to be brutal and the very first way of reducing numbers is to discount that group of people. That might sound harsh, but it's one of the reasons why it is essential for children to be taught how to spell.

Whirlpool galaxy: print out page 72 of the National Curriculum and hand it to the teacher, highlighted if you like and a copy to the head if you like, the curriculum is statutory, spelling since Sept 2014 has prescribed lists that have to be taught and the teacher has absolutely no choice whatsoever on the spelling of "recognise" in a Primary classroom in England.

(although my spellchecker is trying to tell me Gove was wrong)

www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/339805/MASTER_final_national_curriculum_until_sept_2015_11_9_13.pdf

Scissor - there it is!!! I must admit I assumed it was a spellcheck error in the first place which is why I did what I did, if I'd known it was deliberate I'd never have contradicted her.

I think in that case I'm going to leave it as it stands. I might still have a chat with DD about some of her behaviours though which seems to have been flagged! The whole soapbox / smartarse thing. I have always encouraged her to ask the teacher stuff which, well you can see how that's turned out!

This thread has been a real eye-opener for me! So thanks everyone. & scissor that makes me feel a lot more comfortable.

I am a primary teacher. I cannot bear poor spelling and grammar in teachers. It is unacceptable. If you know you are a poor speller, you need to have a dictionary next to you and ask other teachers to check your work. Poor spellers can also be amazing teachers-provided they do the above.

Spelling is age related too - what words would you expect a child to spell well and what keywords they need to know. Teachers focus on these first. Children who are struggling often get extra phonics/spelling patterns help.

Crystal, of course I have encountered it! Just like I've encountered garbage, freeway, fall and soccer! But we are not American. So we don't use it. grin

Who are you including in 'we'? Which publishers do you work for?

Section 3.1.3 of Hart's might be useful for your CPD.

Just in case you don't have a copy to hand.

Late to it, but since there are so many posts I'll chip in mine.

The -ize ending is a transliteration of the Greek root, which Oxford think is more accurate than -ise (and it is, but that is very pedantic).

Someone commented that we're 'now' teaching -ize as well as -ise, but actually, it's the other way around. Words like 'surprise' have been spelt 'surprize' in the past, and if you look at old copies of eighteenth-century books you'll see they do that. America kept that usage, and we varied it.

Not that it matters ... it's just people tend to assume it's an American/new thing, and it's neither.

I am pretty sure most of the DC books have -ise for these sorts of words, except ones like Dr Suess.

Is it really not the norm in the UK to use -ise after all? In which case why does the national curriculum have it?

Crystal do you think the national curriculum should be -ize? Or maybe the children need to be taught both spellings and told to pick whichever is their preference? I can see that you make a strong case for -ize and feel uncomfortable with anyone saying "-ise" is correct, which certainly supports the teacher's stance (-ize was the way they had to spell it as per the sheet).

Maybe the teacher should have made clear that she was teaching her preference, and that as it was a learning sheet they had to answer as per the sheet, but that they may have a different preference and taught that separately. That seems a bit convoluted for a bunch of 7yo though. And she didn't say that she just said if they had -ise they didn't get the mark.

I don't really understand why she would teach this one -ize when the others were -ise. (The sheet had a whole bunch of "similar" words as per usual). I did think it was an autocorrect error but have been set straight on that I think.

I just don't want DD confused and making the teacher pissed off with her. Anyway when she came back and said the teacher said it was -ize and had to be spelt that way I didn't say anything as I didn't want to have her confused, I had thought it was a mistake in the first place otherwise never would have said anything, certainly not if I'd known DD would ask and be labelled a smart arse and so forth.

I've really fucked this one up, hopefully I can learn from this mistake.

A friend who qualified as a teacher in the early '80s introduced me to the "not too many corrections" policy which was then new.

I think we can safely say it's been a disaster. YANBU.

whirl, 'ise' is much more common, as this thread shows.

There are a few words that have acceptable variant spellings. Learned/learnt is still a matter of choice, I'd say. Lit/lighted is another one where I have a hazy memory some people mind which one you use. And mediaeval/medieval.

I think we can safely say it's been a disaster.

Why so?

People seem to think there has been a widespread decline in literacy (measured as spelling fluency, which is dodgy in itself). I don't believe there has been.

Just seen that post Crystal. That is helpful thank you, although just as confused again.

So Biff and Chips is weird then, if it's Oxford University Press. I wonder why they did that. I've not seen any notes in them about what preferences they use and why. This is potentially confusing for the children. If some books have one way and other books and tests have another way. When they are learning how to spell, I mean, I think most children will find strict rules helpful.

Anyway the teacher gave them strict rules so that's OK I suppose.

I wonder if there will be more words like that.

Jeanne I came across one of those the other day! Where there are 2, like the learnt/learned example. I can't remember what it was now.